Porn Dictates to Wax or Not Wax?

lol, Dave, right on.

I was on another seed that proves Loretta's point. There was a man on there talking about sex being the total reason for just about everything. He was talking about women even with (paraphrase) gorgeous bodies being boring after and more than 2 mos of putting up with that was equal to a life sentence..He said all he liked was the "conquering" of "targets" and all of his friend who were married went on "business trips" but one wouldn't leave his wife, and that the others had "girlfriends or mistresses, all "of course" younger than their wives, and that since he was "well off and good looking" he would never get married (thank god for the women) but he actually asked what in life could possible be better or worth more than sex?

I didn't ask him how old he was. I asked if he were yanking my chain and this was a goof but he continued on in the same vein as if I were the crazy one. He never mentioned, love, or relationships, or responsibility, or brains or heart once.

It was one of the scariest things I have ever read. Sometimes I feel that my family lives in a fantasy land where we have been left in the past because to us there is more than this total obsession with sex. It seems like the porn gets uglier and uglier working its way back to the Marquis de Sade.

I can understand not wanting to be in a marriage type relationship for any number of reasons. I can understand still wanting a sex life, but I can't imagine wanting only a sex life and having just about everything from my looks to my wallet, to my soul caught up in sex. To me that is just weird and sad. I think it inevitably leads to the objectification and degradation of women and then just as directly to rape as if a woman or girl or child is just there as an object for someone else's sexual gratification--what do we expect to happen. I think by now many rapists don't even think what they are doing is even wrong--how scary is that? We have been so totally desensitized and as Loretta has said , young girls now think that it makes them sexy to act in ways that are totally to please boys. Once again the concept of the girl or woman being a sexual being instead of a sexual object and toy or video for men and boys is being lost and fast--very depressing--I really am glad that I am old and that one of our daughters is a total hippie and an overconfident woman, because in this culture she is going to need every ounce of that overconfidence to survive. Our other daughter is really caught up in the gross popular culture as she is mentally challenged, and continues time after time to be a vicitm. Pathetic.

Right on, millerb. I thought that in the 60s, humanity had transcended this objectification of women as sexual toys only, but it's back even more blatantly than ever. It's horrifying, truly horrifying.

Brazilian any more than they are conditioned to expect garter belts and black stockings, also staples of porn

Folks, I know it's hard to get educated about a subject while riding a horse oh-so high, but now days, American porn is all about total nudity, body piercings, tattoos and just being plain crude.

FYI: In porn, the shaving goes for both women AND men....but acknowledging that little fact wouldn't allow the few to endlessly play the oppressed victim, now would it?

I've long thought porn was a problem for our teens. They go there seeking to learn about sex and find a whole lot of distortions, including how our bodies should look, both male and female. No one can live up to the body distortions promoted in porn, whether it is enhance body parts, airbrushing or whatever.

I don't think it is the porn so much as ... "modern opinions". If you look at old porn, the image is ... bush. Even some of the images today show trimmed bush...

There is just a click that prefers "clean"... and it permeates the entertainment industry. No you don't see the visual, but you hear it in music, or the celebrity discusses it.

I seem to remember this discussion in the Vagina Monologues... and Real Sex.

I don't think men are necessarily encouraged or expected to shave or wax in their nether regions, however, I do think that many feel it necessary to wax or shave their chest. IMO, I prefer a man with hair on his chest. Why on earth would I want to feel like I was with a 12 YO boy? Yikes!!!!

I find some hair on a man's chest to be quite sensual...

Interesting angle with the pre-pubesnt age. I sometimes wonder if it is an legal way of dabbling in having sex with someone underage.

I can't speak towards any general trend, only from my personal experience, but many women I've been with have expected me to be shaved (though none expected me waxed), and seemed to think that it was part of natural grooming along with a shaved face and clipped fingernails. Also from my own experience, while I could care less about whether a woman is shaved or not, most do seem to be at least trimmed in attempt to meet some percieved societal standard.

If we're going to get upset about the grooming of pubic hair, however, why not get just as upset about the idea that women have to shave their legs? It's obviously a sexist double standard and is done for equally sexist aesthetic reasons. I let people make up their own minds on how they want to treat their bodies. Shave, don't shave, pierce, don't pierce, cover yourself in tattoos or don't, in the end it's your body and your decision, and if someone is so superficial that their love is dependent on the length of your pubic hair...they're probably not worth the effort in the first place.

All that said, their are some practical reasons for at least keeping the pubes from turning into the Amazon, nobody likes coughing up a hairball ;-)

Andrew,

True (regarding womens nether regions). I think most women at least "groom" it somewhat, but without going into great detail, there are better reasons to keep it trimmed than attempting to sexually satisfy the opposite sex. I'll just leave it at that....

Dragonwoman,

All I know is, I would find a man who is bare down there to be somewhat psychologically disturbing. My husband has stated the same regarding women (a bare down there woman would be like being with a child in some aspects). So your thoughts as to whether it could be a legal way to dabble in some, well, lets face it, pedophilia like behavior may be closer to the truth than most would want to admit. I wonder if men that prefer no hair are also the ones that prefer small breasts or overall a more childlike physique.

If so, that's as wrong as the other way around. But I haven't heard men complain that they are feeling pressured. Have you?

Pressured? Heck no. I volunteer, as do most men I've ever talked to about it (like... three of the four I've ever asked--so it isn't a particularly large survey).

Women should choose for themselves, as should men. I, for one, would never try waxing again. Just getting it on my legs hurt like hell. Shaving is a different issue altogether.

But everyone should go by their own preference, and I, personally, am a fan of shaved.

I think that hairless bodies, both mine and hers, simply feel nicer, and the women I date tend to agree. There is actually a perfectly good reason to keep your pubic area shaved: it makes oral sex more pleasurable for the person performing it, if they don't have to compete with your pubic hair (likewise: boys, this is why you should lop the damn handlebars off your lips).

Maybe it is just a result of porn that the aesthetic is changing. Instead of automatically condemning it for that reason, we should wonder why it's an attractive aesthetic in porn. A lot of the moires about sex have changed, as sex became more appropriate a topic of conversation. Just because it is influenced by pornography, is it necessarily bad?

Also, to women: if you feel like the man you are sleeping with would pressure you into shaving/waxing your body in ways that you are uncomfortable with, then stop sleeping with him. He sucks.

Interesting angle with the pre-pubesnt age. I sometimes wonder if it is an legal way of dabbling in having sex with someone underage.

I don't think it's necessarily an attempt to be a pedophile, but sure: it does make you look younger. But ok, so what? How many people actually fantasize about having sex with older partners?

I don't think it's necessarily an attempt to be a pedophile, but sure: it does make you look younger. But ok, so what? How many people actually fantasize about having sex with older partners?

Well, there's a big difference in someone who sexually fantasizes about older men or women and those who fantasize about prepubesent children. Now, I know I am engaging in a bit of hyperbole, however, I insist there is something uniquely disturbing about a bald nether region in either sex. Makes you look younger? Ya, like a 10 year old. Generally speaking older adults do prefer to look younger but not to look like children.

Now, I know I am engaging in a bit of hyperbole, however, I insist there is something uniquely disturbing about a bald nether region in either sex. Makes you look younger? Ya, like a 10 year old. Generally speaking older adults do prefer to look younger but not to look like children.

A thirty six year-old woman with a shaved nether region, does not, a ten year-old, resemble. There are plenty of differences. Actually, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen any naked ten year-olds--so maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to take a wild guess and assert that it's probably true.

Do you really think that an attempt to look younger is necessarily an attempt to look pre-pubescent? Or that her partner is unable/unwilling to tell/admit the difference?

Vault, I would agree with the statement if they prefer their women not only shaved but the breasts high and firm...

Let's face it, them puppies drop. So Zom is right in that a 36 year old shaved woman does not resemble a 10 year old.

I do wonder if there is not some sort of fetish involved though. Some kind of unrealistic expectation of what a woman should look like.

Look at the "Nip and Tuck" industry... getting older is not cool for many.

Kinda sad really.

Meh, to each his own, really. I do think that for some people, the attraction of bare genitals is the connection to a childlike appearance. However, if both partners enjoy the shaved/waxed look/feel, I really don't care. As long as they aren't really hurting children, I could care less what they want to do with their own genitals. And yes, I think sometimes partners are unwilling to admit the truth about their significant others. This goes well beyond the bounds of to shave or not to shave though.

Meh, to each his own, really.

I agree. Each person should make an informed choice. If one partner has a kink for it, and they're in a committed relationship, ask them to try it. If they say they don't like it, then drop it.

Women should not feel any more compelled to fulfill a a man's sexual desires than a man should to fulfill a woman's. But, that said, in a committed, honest relationship, neither one should feel any shame in expressing their desires, either, and both should feel free to say "ok," or "hell no, are you nuts?" as they so-decide.

If it isn't mutual, or if women feel like they can't bring up their own wants, they should find different partners.

So, yeah. I agree with the article: if porn is making women feel like they have to do this? That's bad. But if that woman's partner isn't making her feel like she doesn't have to do it? That's the bigger problem, in my eyes.

And yes, I think sometimes partners are unwilling to admit the truth about their significant others. This goes well beyond the bounds of to shave or not to shave though.

You're right, but sometimes that's a good thing, too. Some of us would never get a date if our partners were honest about who we are ;)

Look at the "Nip and Tuck" industry... getting older is not cool for many.

Kinda sad really.

Eh. Only if you let it be. Being good lookin' is fun, isn't it? Boy or girl, we all like to imagine ourselves looking good. I think it's only sad when it's someone else you're trying to look good for, instead of the person in the mirror.

I'm glad I am old. People are really getting weird.

I'm with you on that one, millerb:=) I think it's the result of making sex the meaning of life.

Perhaps some of porn's consumers could enlighten us.

So you admit that you're totally ignorant about something that you're bashing and all but calling evil? LOL

Loretta,

I think you are right about the effect of porn (well, I would say hard core porn) on relationships. I think that some mild porn can have it's place. I venture to say that it's the hard core, raunchy stuff that tends to objectify more. I also think that the more pervasive pornography becomes in our society, the more the average human being is going to be judged against it. This is not too far off from the effect that Hollywood has on the collective American psyche. It is a little known fact that approx. only 3% of the population possess the genetics necessary to achieve this so called "perfect" body. There is a general misperception out there that if we would all just get off our lazy arses and exercise till we drop we could all look like greek gods and goddesses. But the fact is that the majority of human beings could lift weights, starve and exercise until literally their arses fell off, and it would get them no closer to being this "ideal". It's is rare to have large breasts and small everything else. Generally, thin women have smaller breasts, same with athletes. Breasts are composed of fat tissue and the leaner your body, the smaller the breasts. Now, thats not to say that it doesn't occur, but, you're back to your 3% of the population (hence, the disgustingly high popularity of breast augmentation surgery). And lets not even get into the multitude of body shapes and sizes, all determined genetically and there isn't jack you can do about it. Hollywood and the porn industry certainly has skewed the publics perception of what a normal, healthy adult female OR male should look like. I know there have been some studies done on the effect of pornography on young males. I will try to find the one I read which concluded that pornography can indeed cause men to no longer find their spouses, girlfriends or even your average, everyday (even attractive) females alluring. It has been proven to alter expectations and perceptions.

Ya. It makes me think of that movie with Bruce Willis, I think it was called Surrogates (never saw it) where everyone was replaced with their "perfect" robotic counterparts. Kind of makes you wonder if thats not where we are really headed. Only plastic could acheive the perfection seen on your average magazine cover. Really disturbing, I think.

What about shaving arm pits or legs? The waxing of a hairy upper lip? Trimming or plucking of eyebrows? All are equally superficial grooming habits done for aesthetic purposes. They're equally controlled by cultural influences. Heck, even makeup, deoderant, and perfume are all superficial practices done largely as part of our cultural mating rituals.

My take is do what makes you happy. I grew up in Maine so I know plenty of hairy hippy chicks who would rather spend the day hiking in the woods than at the spa getting a wax, and none of them are ever hurting for a date on Saturday nights.

There are weeks on end, I don't feel like shaving the pits or the legs... especially in the winter.... LOL

But if one errant hair lands on my chin... that frigger is going by way of the tweezers

There are weeks on end, I don't feel like shaving the pits or the legs... especially in the winter.... LOL

rAmen to that, Dragon. Why spend money on razors and deal with stubble if you are wearing pants and sweaters all the time?

This is what I am saying...

Plus when you are rushing in the morning in the shower.. who has time for aerobics or yoga.

Imagine a balancing act while you are half asleep and the house is freezing...

LMAO... thanks Jones =}

TMI

Hmm, this coming from a man whose main girls are Palmela Handerson and Fistina Nuckles =)

If a man can live up to the porn version, then (and only then) should he expect his partner to look like a porn star. What if women said they only wanted men with unnaturally large privates? In the case of the lady writing to the help column: The next time her boyfriend says something about her hairy bush, she could reply "I'll shave when you get a 12-inch penis".

Women need to be comfortable with their own bodies. Whether to shave (or wax) or not is a personal decision. If a man can't accept who you are, then he doesn't deserve you.

since men are the main consumers of porn, then men should be protesting.

Loretta, you think that will bring back our forskins?...: )

I did wiki it and found out this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_of_Christ

I have to plead ignorance on this, now as far as waxing it seems to heighten pleasure, for me. As for porn live is better.

"I'll shave when you get a 12-inch penis".

No thank you... too much tool for the job.

too much tool for the job

I never would have thought that you'd say that

This was an extreme example, but if men don't have the "porn look" why do they expect women to?

I never would have thought that you'd say that

There was this photo linked to another article. This poor guy had a penis that had to be at least 14 inches.

My first thought was ... OMG...Hella No!!! keep it away from me.

I can just imagine a bruised cervix... yikes!!!

it is pretty sad that an educated individual would think such a thing.

Someone needs to introduce this person to the real makings of the vagina.... and where X marks the G-Spot.

In one study, he actually said something along the lines that a "true" orgasm requires the penis to ram the cervix.

Wtf? Something tells me that you're guaranteeing orgasm won't happen for the woman, under those conditions. Further, I'd bet money on a repeat performance being out of the question, as well.

if men don't have the "porn look" why do they expect women to?

I work on my 'porn look' daily, practice makes perfect

In one study, he actually said something along the lines that a "true" orgasm requires the penis to ram the cervix.

Yes, luckily some of us won't ever have to worry about this.

:(

Aww bonz... it is the motion of the ocean.... believe that.

Aww bonz... it is the motion of the ocean.... believe that.

DW is right, with the small arch of the back and the bend of the motion of the penis it will hit the little man in the boat, and the big man in the cave.

Nice way of putting it Wude.... but don't deny that little man... he packs quite a shake.

Would these same men shave the package completely????

I did once, and I will never do it again. Like you said, "because it does grow back". The itching was very irritating.

Not only itchy, but quite scratchy for the partner while it's growing back. My wife tried it once years ago. Never again.

I heard about Brazilians and "air strips"

Now that I have to, I may go home and try that out

DaVoH... Even the air strips grow back... and it is irritating... If you keep it up.. maybe... I just imagine bumps and ingrown hair issues...

A little trimming around the hedges should be enough.

When both of you are shaved, it's like rubbing sandpaper against sandpaper. I know, because it was a honeymoon experiment gone horribly wrong

Even if only one person shaved, as it grows back you still have the effect of sandpaper against parts that should not be sanded. As I said, we'll never do that again.

When both of you are shaved, it's like rubbing sandpaper against sandpaper.

See....

Now if you leave the little lady alone, it would be like spun silk.

it would be like spun silk.

I was told apple pie

Was that from a movie???

Where a fella actually humped his momma's pie?

Yes, but it'll never be as good as your Mango, I can promise you that =)

ROTF.... who told??? was it that bad boy????

who told???

Remember, I can eat a peach for hours. I like the way the fuzz tickles my face and it's sweet juicy nectar, maybe not sweet, but you get the picture.

Wow =}

Grrrr, baby Yeah!!

I can eat a peach for hours

Castor Troy

Nice eye there, boneclinkz

This is the same fella that wants Texas to succeed from the union. I wonder if it is the same Governor who made it mandatory for 12 year old girls to get the HPV shot before entering HS.

New is not improved.

Demand? No.

A trim would be nice.

Sorry, no manscaping here.

No scrapping....just a little hedge clipping will do

No scrapping

On second thought, I'll just keep my bush

I agree common...

interesting subject and something you said has got me thinking "soulless"

Has the soul been lost in sex lately????

I may ponder this thought and come up with an article.

Has the soul been lost in sex lately????

What is the soul?

What is the soul?

Good question

I think it's interesting that you bring up music, and sort of underscores the point I was trying to make. When she says "soul" and is actually referring to a way of experiencing sexuality, the interpretation of that experience is subjective. Think about it this way:

Many people would claim that popular music has lost its soul. But there are many people that pop music really speaks to. Rather than marginalize their experience, perhaps we should understand that "music" means different things to different people, and avoid claiming that one experience is "better" than another.

In the same way, people are looking for different things in relationships. Some people are interested in monogamous commitment and security, other people are interested in flings and hook ups. Is it reasonable to say that one experience is better than the other?

The answer is yes. Meaningless flings and hook ups are always better because you can cut all ties and bail if the woman starts to nag.

The answer is yes. Meaningless flings and hook ups are always better because you can cut all ties and bail if the woman starts to nag.

If the woman wants to nag

**giggles**

Oh my, because that is the problem ????? right???........... her nagging?

bonz... I am not going to rag on your idealizm of pop music but in answer to your statement:

Many people would claim that popular music has lost its soul.

In someways, I would say .....YES!!!! and ...

I would not leave it at POP.... I would add some rap right in there.

Of course there is soul in both rap and pop... but some are just surface.

Why bonz would she rag if there was a clear understanding as to what the sexual experience would be up front, and you and she bothered to show some care and respect towards each other?

By the sentence,

"Meaningless flings and hook ups are always better because you can cut all ties and bail if the woman starts to nag."

You would have us all believe that the woman is just a tool to you and you already have zero respect for her.

A "fling" does not need to be soulless.

I most certainly don't think that sex should lead necessarily to marriage or some kind of trap.

.... but if without soul... I would prefer masterbation. I know I have love for myself.

... but I sure as hell would not tape it and give it to someone.... LOL

There has to be a way to counteract that effect, but I haven't heard of one yet.

I've been outa town, so missed this part. I can't post links (because I'm at work), but there is a growing movement of pro-female "art-porn" cropping up.

It's mostly ex-porn star women (who become producers/directors, if they stay in the sex industry), where the women are making female-centric pornography that is intended to promote positive images of female sex and sexuality. Some of it gets a little training-video-esque, now and then, as in "watch this with your partner, and maybe he'll learn how to please you without thinking sex is just about how many different places he can put his peepee," but there is an (albeit small) market emerging in this genre.

It's often semi soft-porn, but some of it is pretty good. The problem is that, to do them well, it has to have high-production value (expensive sets/cameras/original music), which tends to be a lot more expensive than traditional and amateur porn.

One website a woman I know particularly loved was a gallery of kissing shots. It was very pretty emo boys and girls kissing sensually, without any intercourse occurring. There are other types, but that one was a good example that comes to mind.

If you really want to fix the problem, I suggest you go out, find the web-sites, and start subscribing. :)

(And no, I don't mean MET, which is the first thing you'll see if you search for "art porn.")

Real Sex on HBO has some How To segments too.

Real Sex on HBO has some How To segments too.

I have a few "How to's" I'd like to demonstrate for you someday DW =)

Oh my...

Is that for me or on me?

Is that for me or on me?

We'll make it the best of both worlds, and combine the two

You two want to get a room? Can I watch? ;~}

Can I watch?

As long as you hold this video camera