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New research sheds light on why women survive for decades when females in many other species die after they lose the ability to reproduce.
The Origin of Menopause: Why Do Women Outlive Fertility?
Seeded on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:22 PM EST
Article Source: Science News, Articles and Information | Scientific American- Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.
- Public Discussion (57)
The real question, though, is probably not: Why menopause? Rather, it is: Why do women long outlive their fertility?
Actually, I think the real questions are: why are women only considered valuable based on their reproductive capabilities? Why does our society think women should die just because they no longer produce children?
- 9 votes
Because even though society does not recognize the worth of the post-menopausal woman, evolution did?
I feel very valuable. I have an 11 year old son to rear, and am certainly past child-bearing age. And I contribute to society-- recognized or not. :-)
So do you, dear friend!
(((((((((((((Loretta)))))))))))))))))
- 7 votes
Grandmothers made civilization possible back before humans understood that sex produced babies. Why should they? There was nine months between sex and birth.
During that period, families were defined by the maternal line. Mothers knew which babies were theirs. Father didn't view themselves as having any part of creating a baby, so they didn't identify as fathers.
Grandmothers made it possible for younger, non-pregnant women and men to hunt, forage for plant food and provide other necessities. Grandmothers supervised both child care and care for adults who were ill or otherwise needed help. Pregnant and lactating mothers were included in her circle that stayed on the home front. Men were also part of the group, recognized as kin by being sons and uncles. Lovers came and went. They weren't considered kin though because they were not born into the maternal clan.
Thus it was the maternal clan, with grandmothers as the leaders, that created village life, invented agriculture and first domesticated animals.
Researchers say that maternal grandmothers increased the survival rate of both their children and their grandchildren. The same wasn't true for paternal grandmothers after paternity was recognized. I've always found that interesting but also question the validity of it. I don't see the logic behind why a paternal grandmother would not have a good effect in family survival.
- 9 votes
Until recently, the mortality rate of women during pregnancy and childbirth was very high. Men frequently had more than one wife, either at the same time or serially. The younger wives would not have a genetic investment in the children of their older rivals, but the paternal grandmother would, insuring the survival of all her son's children.
- 6 votes
Pardon my ignorance I don't claim to be knowledgeable on this fascinating topic at all. The thought does occur to me that the idea of a woman being a grandmother AND no longer being able to conceive is rather recent.
Woman surviving until 51 on average didn't start happening until early 20th century. Combine that with different practices on marriage a woman could be a grandmother at 26 to 31 years of age even today.
- 8 votes
Good points from both of you.
Another thought: after the birth of our last child, we still have two decades of child rearing to do. That alone should explain why women continue to live past their childbearing days.
- 7 votes
Researchers say that maternal grandmothers increased the survival rate of both their children and their grandchildren. The same wasn't true for paternal grandmothers after paternity was recognized. I've always found that interesting but also question the validity of it. I don't see the logic behind why a paternal grandmother would not have a good effect in family survival.
Just my thoughts on why this would be so.
When the communities are maternal based, the female children remain home. We recognize our daughters, when they issue children we know they are our line. Pretty impossible to fake that giving birth thing.
However, when societies turned to being paternal based, the female children left to join the male's family. The younger woman is not only a rival for the male's affections her children are not an extension of yours. The children could quite literally be anybody's. This is probably why children look almost exactly like their fathers for the first few weeks after birth. That help insure they would survive.
I come to this conclusion for 2 reason. Natural human nature. We wish to protect our own. and Observation of family dynamics within differing cultures.
Great seed and thought provoking. I was looking forward to perhaps having grandchildren soon. (sons are in their 20s) when the hubby and I were surprised by a late pregnancy. I have now begun mental-pause.... again. LOL
- 2 votes
The most popular explanation, the "grandmother hypothesis," argues that a generous post-reproductive life span makes sense if a grandmother improves the survival and reproduction of her grandchildren, thus ensuring continuation of her own genes—including genes that contribute to longevity. But skeptics say the math is askew. From an evolutionary perspective, it is hardly ever better for a woman to give up a chance to bear additional children of her own, and so pass on half her genes, for the sake of improving the survival of her grandchildren, who carry only a quarter of her genes.
That's the problem with being too scientific . This group is only looking at the
"hardware" that gets passed on . The "software" [culture and traditions]
may be more important .
- 6 votes
They're also not looking at life as a woman looks at life. I've never known a woman who was worried about passing on her genes to the extent that she thinks continuing to bear children is better than having grandchildren. Who cares about half or quarter genes? Does anyone take that into account when they're thinking about family?
Why would a woman prefer to keep making and caring for babies over having grandbabies? For that matter, if she wanted to, she could do both. It isn't as if she has to choose one or the other. But women opt not to keep having babies because they don't want more (or any at all). That's why birth control is considered a necessity by most women.
The idea that women want to be eternally pregnant is ludicrous, as is the idea that mothers would view their daughters as broodmare competition.
- 7 votes
Loretta ,
You said it much better than I did or could hope to .
- 4 votes
To most women, grandchildren are a gift, an affirmation that life, and family, goes on.
- 6 votes
Woman surviving until 51 on average didn't start happening until early 20th century.
Not exactly. When they say that people in a certain time period had a life expectancy of say 40, they are including a massive loss of life before age 5. Pretty much the average is heavily skewed by infant mortality and early childhood death. Two out of three people may never make it to 5, but if you managed to survive to adulthood you often had a good chance of reaching 60,70 etc.
I used to work with human remains and there were plenty of elderly people in 5th century Britain, for example.
- 5 votes
That is true, as is the fact that pregnancy and childbirth were high risk endeavors before modern medicine made them lower risk. Even so, they are still high risk in many parts of the world.
But there was never any reason to believe that women's only life function was to have babies. That was never true, not even in the most repressive patriarchal societies. Women always contributed in multiple ways, so the idea that women have no reason to exist beyond fertility was not logical in any era.
- 5 votes
Women have always had much more to offer than just being 'breeding' stock.
It is the women that prepare the meals for all of the family. It is women who keep the home livable/comfortable. It is women who prepare the places to sleep. It is women who care for the sick and injured. It is women that pass on this knowledge to younger women.
- 1 vote
If you read about the ideal wife in Proverbs, she did everything --- ran the household, raised the kids, ran the farm, made the linen, ran any other family business, all while her husband sat in the gates of the city and bragged what a good wife he had, no doubt drinking wine she made from the grapes in the vineyard she ran.
- 5 votes
Well, just to throw in one bone for the male side here ... the males of old did defend the home and the homeland....
It's a pity really that the males of recent don't always do as much as they should, instead leaving it to the females.
- 3 votes
Oh, but you missed the best part. The Jewish sacred feminine is represented by Shekinah. On Friday evening, their Sabbath begins. That evening is dedicated to Shekinah.
In her honor, every husband is obligated to make love to his wife. Part of his obligation is to raise her to the sexual sublime and includes making sure she orgasms.
Many Jewish husbands refrained from sex all week to ensure they had the stamina that Shekinah and their wife deserved.
- 8 votes
Loretta: In my opinion the wife should be getting an orgasm just about every time ... not just on Friday.
L/J: Thanks.
- 1 vote
I agree, but at least she was guaranteed once a week. Many women today never have an orgasm, from what I've read.
- 2 votes
Never had one in my first marriage. Fifteen years of all about him whether I was interested or not.
Second hubby, Oh. My. Gosh! I had no idea what I was missing. Second hubby's philosophy is he's got this gorgeous woman laying in the bed beside him, why wouldn't he not want to make it all about her? Satisfy her every need and make her scream out her own name in seven languages. Chances are pretty darn good next time he's interested she's going to be happily receptive. I like his thinking.
- 5 votes
New research sheds light on why women survive for decades when females in many other species die after they lose the ability to reproduce.
Because life begins when the kids leave!!! :o) Just kidding (I have teen twin boys still at home)
I am loving this stage of my life, I have many more good years in me, I don't regret having my children young.
- 5 votes
#2 - Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:05 PM ESTEleanor Roosevelt said that women mother the world after they're done raising their own children. If she could recognize that in her era, then why is our value in our community still undervalued today? It can only be because of patriarchal prejudice.
I too am loving this stage of life. At last, I can pursue my dreams without having to set them aside, in part or in whole, in favor of someone else's needs or wants. I can also choose to help others, including my own children and grandchildren, but I'm not obligated.
That's a good feeling. I'm not obligated. For the first time in my life. That's an amazing concept that still feels very strange.
- 5 votes
That's a good feeling. I'm not obligated. For the first time in my life. That's an amazing concept that still feels very strange.
Thia is probably one of the main reasons that grandchildren are so dear to us grandma's. I think you hit it out of the park with this statement.
- 4 votes
Women often give much of themselves away to family for many years before being allowed personal freedom. I gave birth to my first child at 23 and my last at 39, which made a lot of years tending to children. It was an excellent life and I dedicated myself unconditionally to this but now I'm independent to an extent and I feel it is party time for me. So, maybe the reason women get to live beyond reproduction age is a bonus and unused vacation and sick time.
- 5 votes
LOL. I like that: we've earned it.
But I really think science has put way too much emphasis on procreation as the only reason for existing, just as I think that religion puts way too much emphasis on procreation being the only reason for sex.
If the latter was true, then the clitoris would not exist. It's only function is to provide sexual pleasure.
If the former was true, then why do we need brains that emphasize intellectual traits? We could have managed with the merest brain where all our actions were determined by sexual response.
- 5 votes
Well then the question comes up : How closely related is sexual attractiveness and fertility? I want to be sexually attractive for all my life but only wanted to be fertile 2 or 3 times over all. The idea of no longer being fertile is very positive. However the idea of not being sexually attractive is very scary to many women.
- 3 votes
Does fertility have anything at all to do with sexiness? A person can be infertile and very sexy. In fact, I'm sure many people would be more attracted to someone who is infertile because they do not want any or any more children.
- 2 votes
The reason I bring it up is a lot of these type articles connect sexual attractiveness with what makes reproduction successful suggesting that that is an underlying significant psychological factor when it comes to attractiveness, not fertility itself, but the characteristics (such as youth).
- 1 vote
You are right. They do. But that's a male POV: to think of women only as sex objects and babymakers. It should not surprise us that "science" is used to perpetuate what men think about women. It's been done ever since the time of Aristotle.
That doesn't make it true. Many things that have been taught as "scientific fact" are falling now that women are also involved in the sciences. They bring a new POV and examine the same facts or circumstances from a new perspective. It should not surprise us that their conclusions are different.
For instance, whenever an ancient grave was found containing weapons, it was automatically assumed it was a male occupant. However, now female anthropologists are examining the skeletons -- and finding some of them are female. No one ever bothered to actually look at the bones before.
There is no reason to continue to believe that what men have traditionally thought were the important "evolutionary" traits of women (which just happened to match what patriarchy thought women's roles were). We need to examine them from a more enlightened place.
- 4 votes
I read about an archeological conference where a man was going on about an ancient find and marks on a bone where a "man" had obviousy counted out the lunar cycle. A female on the panel quipped, "A lunar cycle? 31 Marks for a lunar cycle, huh?"
- 1 vote
Sounds about right. And yes, it must have been a "man" because why would a woman be counting days? ROTFLOL
- 2 votes
My knowledge of evolutionary theory would cause me to predict that as human children require a lot of raising, that one of the parents would have to be there to provide it, and it would defeat this goal this if that long-term provider conceived again, as then they might not be able to last until the last child no longer required help.
The comments about life spans are correct. The human race is - apparently - either breaking new ground as a longer lived species, or repeating what has gone on in past history and been forgotten.
This "support" instinct is so strong, that modern child-adults seem to actually have an entitlement attitude towards their parents. They live like they are retired - use all their resources for self gratification - and then demand more from their parents using various manipulative means to deal with the never ending "emergencies" in their incompetent lives.
Females are not living in a gravy world as they age. The body begins to fail, they get used by even their own children, and society - interestingly enough - doesn't seem to respect them as it should.
- 5 votes
Great points. I think our society views older women as disposable because the public viewpoint is from a male perspective and lacking a female counterpoint. Men think of women in a sexual way, thus when they cease to play that role, men are done thinking about them at all.
That's very simplified, of course, and very generalized. But that seems to be how older women became viewed as unnecessary and without value. Certainly that's how they're being viewed in a study that has to ask why women would outlive fertility.
- 5 votes
I think the males (in particular men, not boys...) that choose to spend time with females who are past childbearing interest/age, are well rewarded for the decision.
Anyone who thinks a female who getting to or past 50 is "over the hill" is a friend of people like me. I wouldn't trade that class of females for all the gold in Fort Knox. These females have forgotten more about life, and how to live it, and how to have fun, than any 50 20-some-thing's that could be pointed at.
So while I DO NOT agree with the still present attitude to devalue so called "older" females, I think more and more males are happy that someone else still does, as it just means more opportunity to work with, love, and admire this most valuable class of females.
- 5 votes
Thanks, US; I'm a frisky, happy and outgoing 65 year-old. My guy is 58 and he thinks I am all that and more. I clearly forget my age in this relationship and love the freedom of experience and knowledge I've been gathering since my 20's. Sure I've got some puppy skin going on and white hair but I know I'm doing great. I believe some women give up when entering an older age or they try to overcompensate. You must remember many women my age and older never got a chance to do anything and were expected to honor and obey. They didn't know how to balance a checkbook or knew about family finances. When their husbands died they were back to square one and unfortunately that could mean the intelligence of a woman in her late teens.
- 3 votes
js: I'm happy to know that you're happy.
And, as has been proved over and over, the "older" generation is well capable of learning to do what needs to be done, and otherwise adapting to new circumstances.
- 2 votes
US Citizen- I completely agree. It's only been the past century or so that the average person has lived to very old. Hence, from an evolutionary perspective, it's impractical for a woman at the end of her life span to concieve again, potentially leaving a child that is 5, 10, 15 years old and still reliant on the mother. And so, there is menopause.
- 5 votes
People have lived a long time for a lot longer than the last century
I looked up several historical figures as well as mine and my husbands geneology and I found while the average lifespan used to be shorter, people don't actually live longer. Less people die young. Infant mortality and treatable diseases (or injuries) used to kill off quite a few. But people who lived out their lives have dies in their 70s 80s and90s for at least the last 2 or 3 hundred years. Here are the ages these people lived to, check out this list:
Thomas Jefferson -83
Ben Franklin - 84
Daniel Boone -85
John Adams - 90
Betsy Ross - 84
Laura Ingalls - 90
Martha Washington - 71
John Wesley - 88
Margaret Sanger - 87
Andrew Jackson- 78
Harriet Tubman - 91
Frederick Douglas - 77"
- 2 votes
That's great research. I'm sure if we went back into other centuries (or if we could), we'd find similar ages.
- 2 votes
I do not dispute the information which has been produced in apparent response to my own inputs.
I will, however, slightly increase the depth of my own commentary to say "I feel that on average more people....." Without early death at a significant level, the overall population assumes a different form ... on average....
It is difficult to put into a blog post any statement which can even begin to fully describe the amount of data which is available...we can only post our thoughts and see what comes from that....
Thank you for your understanding of what I've thus done....
- 1 vote
Before the onset of modern medical techniques, the most significant early deaths was children. 50% of children died before reaching the age of five.
Pregnancy and childbirth were also dangerous to endure with fewer pregnancies going full term and many women dying. I don't have the figures on that though.
Most death among young males were probably from wars, unless there was an epidemic which could wipe out entire families. Some of the plagues almost wiped out entire nations.
But what happened to people once these were accounted for? I suspect that those who argue they lived long lives are correct.
It would be the latter that would be important in discussing women living beyond menopause. The ages provided above suggest that women always lived as long as men once they were past childbearing. If that is so, why is there a study that is questioning why women should live as long as men?
The thesis used the fact that men continue to produce sperm as the reason they continue to live into old age, but that ignores the reality that some old men have erectile dysfunction even when they are still fertile. (Not sure how many men are affected as a percentage) So why didn't the study include the question: why do men with erectile dysfunction continue to live beyond their reproductive usefulness?
It would be the equivelent question to ask, yet I haven't seen any studies that delve into it. That indicates bais based on prejudice.
- 3 votes
Prior to modern medicine, 1 in 10 births ended in either the death of the mother or the baby. Thats a lot, but 90% survival rate sounds good. That does not count infants that dies soon after birth or those that didn't make it to 5 (infant mortality) . Modern medicine made it better and then worse (infections spreading & other harmful interventions) Then it got better again once germs were understood.
- 1 vote
Lettice Knollys, a lady-in-waiting to Queen Elizabeth, and the wife of Robert Dudley, lived to be in her 90's...
Two of Katharine of Aragon's ladies lived to be in their 90's as well, I just can't remember who they were... :-)
It wasn't un-heard of, but probably unusual, due to childbirth and the infectious ailments most people died of back then.
- 3 votes
Upper Paleolithic 33
At age 15: 39 (to age 54)[7][8]
Neolithic 20
Classical Rome[11] 28
Pre-Columbian North America[12] 25-30
Medieval Islamic Caliphate[13] 35+
The average lifespans of the elite class were 59–84.3 years in the Middle East[14][15] and 69–75 in Islamic Spain.[16]
Medieval Britain[17][18] 20-30
Early 20th Century[19][20] 30-45
Current world average[21] 66.58
2009 est
I grabbed this off of wikipedia (credible source? lol) as pertaining to human average life spans throughout time. Thoughts?
How are the life spans being caculcated? Are they including the 50% of children who died before age five? If so, that doesn't tell us anything about the average life span of adults or of women past child-bearing years.
- 2 votes
I have a couple of great books with wonderful people who have lived past 100 years. To read their stories is simply divine.
- 1 vote
Loretta honey...I am going to say this as simple as possible......it is so we can enjoy sex with out worry at long last.... we paid the piper...had the kids...and now my dear,,,it is our turn........after men being so able all of those years...and now they can't.....but damn we can and should ............so I say.....give it hell!!!!!! You might even come home and brag about it.....stinkin of gin...and after shave.........go take a shower...say...man I feel so sweaty tonight....or....whats in the frig...I feel starved....he will remember those things...and know why .........hot damn Lorreta...it is the pay off!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didnt get the chance...I out lived four of them......but you gals do it for the old Gipper here....thanks a lot!!!!!!!!!!
- 6 votes
#5 - Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:52 PM ESTROTFLOL. What a great post. I'd take your advice, except I don't keep a house pet of the human species. I borrow them for a while, use up their stamina, then send them home again. Who needs a cow when you can get the milk for free?
But, oh, yeah, great advice for those who keep one in the house.
- 5 votes
I LOVE IT!!! I'm only 32, but I'll definitely keep this in mind!
- 5 votes
I ran from some of those types of men but the one I have now would wait on me hand and foot if I asked him, but I'd do the same for him. I think this is what a relationship is all about, knowing you'd do anything for one another and share always.
- 3 votes
Why Do Women Outlive Fertility?
Modern medicine. They use to die in childbirth fairly often. If you do genealogy or history, you'll see many men had 2, 3, or 4 wives. Because they first wife died giving birth, so the man married again. Then that wife died giving birth. And on and on. That's why you will see in the old days, it was common for a 40 or 50 year-old man to be married to a young woman. That's because his first wife died in giving birth or from complications after the birth and in some cases, between having all those babies and working in the fields and cooking and cleaning, the wife just died of exhaustion. Got so weak and worn out, then some bug came along and took her out.
But not just the women, plenty of men died young too. Typhoid(yellow fever) and cholera outbreaks were common, and lots of people also died from pneumonia.
- 5 votes
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