"Having Children" Is a Euphemism

What choice does a woman have if she's in a romantic relationship with a man? Would he agree to sexual contact that does not involve PIV? For instance, what men call "foreplay" (and often indulge in very grudgingly) is the part of sex that most women get the most pleasure out of. What if a woman wanted to stop there? What if she said "Anything except PIV"? How do you think most men would react?

Okay, then we agree: women can and should say, "This is off limits." (if that is the case)

So why be angry when this author talks about her dislike of PIV? Why shouldn't she be able to say that without all the anger being tossed out here?

I see. So women can express their views about having sex with men as long as they don't talk about men in the negative because you don't like it. Which completely illustrates her points about how men treat women: Men come first. Men get to control women. Women suffer because of it. Women must suffer in silence.

So your anger is not about her views on motherhood at all. It's about her declaring her independence from and anger at her father and men in general.

Guess what? You don't get to tell women how they must frame the way they talk. You don't get to tell women what they can and cannot talk about.

We get to talk about motherhood and men with anger if we choose. She chose to because she is angry about what her mother went through. Her father was abusive. She has every right to be angry at him and at the system that supports men like him.

The fact that you want to deny her right to speak out about it just goes to show you are part of the system that doesn't want women to be able to freely express how they are adversely impacted by our patriarchal society.

If the situation was reversed, you would be doubly angry that someone thought you were out of line to even talk about your life and your perspectives on it. So why inflict that attitude on her?

Ringo,

He isn't talking about individual relationships or individuals of either sex. He's talking about the power imbalance our society has created with men being endowed with far more social power than women.

Here's an article that will help you understand the context. It is discussing power imbalance in divorce but does an excellent job of analyzing gender power imbalances over all:

http://www.divorcemed.com/Articles/ArticlesByDiane/Mediation-and-Power.htm

Mary Joe Frug (1988, p.1) described herself as a feminist: "For me, that word means that I am committed to two goals: (1) I hope to advance the position of women socially, economically, and in their personal relationships, and (2) I seek to undermine and undo the effect of gender on the lives of women and men." Andrea Dworkin (1976) argues that biological determinism is at the root of male supremacy ideology. Historically, she explains, men have prospered merely because of their gender. Being male gives one the ability to control females. Dworkin views the power of men as a class issue: because men belong to the privileged class, each man has power over every woman. Adrienne Rich (1976) explains that the superior power held by members of the male sex is created by society. She argues that the foundation of society must change before individual power dynamics between men and women can change. Without fundamental changes in society's sex roles and systems of power distribution, the male/female imbalance cannot be addressed. Rich argues that "Personal and social change is dependent on change in the patriarchal foundation of society, i.e., on a restructuring of power relations that have maintained the status quo"

I didn't ignore what he said. I understood in the broader meaning he intended. Obviously, you aren't ready to move beyond the realm you now understand. When you are, go ahead and read up on gender imbalances and how it affects relationships.

This entire seed is about gendered power imbalance. If that makes you uncomfortable, then so be it. But we aren't going to stop discussing it on that level because you don't understand what that means.

You need to learn more before you're going to be able to understand anything here.

I know boneclinkz from other discussions and know he thoroughly understands what I'm talking about and that he uses his understanding of cultural mores when he posts. That's why he came to a vastly different conclusion than you did.

First you try to tell the author of the seed that she can't say bad things about men, which is an absurd position because you have no control over what she does or does not write.

You completely missed that what she wrote wasn't about men. It was about the negative effects our male-oriented culture has on women.

Second, you keep trying to personalize this down to your experience. Your experience is of no importance in this discussion. The cultural implications are there no matter what you have or have not experienced.

Third, this isn't about individual men or women being strong or weak. It's about our culture and what it imposes on men and women from outside of them without regard to their strengths or weaknesses.

I don't know how to explain it any clearer. If you still don't understand even that minimal bit, then there is no point in trying to help you understand anything else.

ROTFLOL. Okay, have it your way...the rest of us will go on discussing things our way.

Not sure what you mean in context to the #3. How do the two comments relate?

This isn't a "fake problem with males."

Men force pregnancy on women as a way of controlling them and keeping them from leaving. In this article, a doctor noted a teen girl who was beaten up after she came to her for birth control.

Teen Girls Report Abusive Boyfriends Try To Get Them Pregnant

In a new qualitative clinical study published in the September-October issue of the journal Ambulatory Pediatrics, Miller and her research colleagues report that a quarter of the teenage girls interviewed for the study -- all of whom had histories of abusive relationships -- say their partners were actively trying to get them pregnant.

There have been cases where teen boys and men poke holes in their condoms so their girlfriends or wives are stuck. As you read these, think how much easier it is for a man to walk away from a pregnant woman than the other way around.

Did Your Boyfriend Poke Holes in That Condom? | Women's Rights ...

A new study by researchers at UC Davis says, if those are your thoughts, you're dead wrong. In a study of young women aged 16 to 29 at reproductive health centers in California, fifteen percent reported that partners had sabotaged their birth control, through actions like stabbing holes in condoms, flushing pills down the toilet, or sneakily slipping out of the condom mid-sex.

Pandagon :: Flushing birth control pills and poking holes in ...

From a teenage boy poking holes in a condom to keep the girlfriend ... Damaging one's own future to abuse and control someone else is just

Okay, but it is her POV. If you read the comments, there are several women posting there who agree with her, so she isn't the only woman who feels this way.

It shouldn't surprise us that not all women think alike. Not all men think alike, so why expect the opposite for women?

I didn't think she was trying to speak for all women but was expressing her opinion.

Women can't adopt out children without the father's agreement. He has to sign the adoption papers too. They only thing they can do without his permission is try to avoid becoming pregnant or get an abortion if they do.

As to custody, stats show that 80% of cases are agreed upon by the parties and the judge merely rubber stamps their agreement. When men sue for custody, they get it in 70% of the cases, so that's a none argument.

This is called assault and rape, and carries very long prison sentences.

Really? Show me a rape statue that includes poking a hole in a condom. I haven't seen that section. Or one that says throwing out her BC will result in a long prison sentence? I'm eager to read that penal code.

As to actual rape, less than 16% of rapists are convicted. Of those, most receive minimal sentences. It's almost impossible to get a conviction on any type of rape and is impossible to get a conviction for rape within a relationship.

You've proven you don't mind distorting facts to try to portray women in a bad light, that you don't believe that women have the right to speak out about the suffering of women at the hands of men and that you have no idea about how the courts work. Guess I don't need to reply any further because you've made it obvious what you're about.

Agreed. But it happens and it does affect how kids think about marriage and children. Kids also figure out things on their own even if the parents don't say anything.

This is why we need to stop thinking every woman is delighted to have children. Some are. Some aren't. Either is okay unless you have a woman who does not want children trying to raise children. (same for men). Studies show that children living with parents do did not want kids are far more likely to be abused or neglected.

Glad to hear you enjoy your five children. All children should be raised in a home with loving parents.

I know other women who were told they were infertile and got pregnant. Guess that's not too accurate a diagnosis, huh?

Women in an abusive relationship can't just say no nor can they just leave. 70% of women who are murdered by their intimate partners are murdered when they try to escape his violence and control. . Rape and forced pregnancy is a common tactic of the abusive man. Since we all know rape is an act of violence, it should not surprise us to know it is part of DV

Domestic Violence and Rape

Domestic violence may take many forms. Destruction of property, psychological and emotional abuse, and physical and sexual assault are all common forms....In its most violent form, domestic violence will involve actual physical and sexual violence, kidnapping of children, torture or murder of pets, etc. Some victims are driven to suicide.

Rape is a crime involving forced sexual activity, usually including sexual penetration, against the will of the victim. Rape can occur in the context of ongoing domestic violence (where a partner sexually assaults another partner against that partner's will)...

Wow. Women like being abused? That hoary old myth is exactly the attitude that supports domestic violence in our society.

I'm Ringo, are you reading this? You just told me that our society doesn't support men abusing women and yet, here is a perfect example.

Sandy, whether you held your head up or not, if he was abusing you, he was abusive. How you reacted doesn't define what he did. Your abuser stopped. That's great. But that isn't how most abusers react. Most abusers get more abusive when their victims leave. They are stalked like prey and their lives are ruined. The victima continue to live in constant fear -- if they continue to live.

You cannot base the dynamic of DV on your situation. The patterns are clear. DV is a serious issue in this country as well as most other countries in this nation.

I just love how the rants against women are strung throughout this seed as an excuse to hate the author and the situation she describes, which is a very common situation. She's terrible to speak out against motherhood. She's terrible to speak out against PIV. No woman can be forced to have a baby. Women are worse than men. etc, etc, etc.

Why not just admit that not all women want to be mothers and, yes, some women are forced into motherhood? Why deny the obvious?

Sure hit a hot button with this one. So much anger at women in general and so much denial about what really happens to women in our society.

I'd sure like to see you move beyond where you are at now and read the links I've provided. People need to realize the truth about gendered violence so we can stop it and can help women like the author's mother.

I've been silent for several days on your insults aimed at battered women. I've decided I need to speak up on their behalf. Blaming the victim is not acceptable. It is cruel in the extreme. They've already suffered enough. They don't need to hear others condemn them with such ugliness.

This misogynistic attitude is exactly why men still believe they can batter women with impunity. It is exactly why it is hard for women to escape their torturer. They live every day of their lives being terrorized in their own homes and outside those doors, they run into people like you who blame them.

I do not have words that can express the deep disgust I feel that this attitude is still alive in our culture. It needs to stop. No one -- no male, no female, no child -- deserves to be battered or likes being battered.

Please don't post anymore of this disgusting drivel here. Battered women deserve our support and respect.

Per her post, he berated her verbally and she left. That is not battering. Even if it was, she doesn't have the right to insult other women in the same spot.

I agree. I wish my mother was able to be more honest with me than she was. She carried too much shame to be able to. We need to stop imposing that shame on women if we're every going to have healthy families.

The more honest we can be with our children, the better their lives will be. That should be the goal of all parents.

My mother didn't say anything until we were adults, but we all knew she resented having so many children. That was before birth control was effective. Children aren't dumb. They can figure things out.

I was glad when she could finally talk about it to us. It cleared the air and helped her stop feeling so guilty.

I wish she'd had a different life, one she wanted rather than one that was forced on her. My dad treated her well, did a lot with us kids, but that didn't change the fact that she felt trapped. She was very intelligent, had a lot of great talents and could have had a successful career in another era.

Negative family patterns cannot be broken if they are never discussed. Understanding how all members of the family feels is an important part of healing the dysfunction that gets passed down from generation to generation. It isn't "dumping." It is being honest. If you ever attended family therapy, that is what would happen.

But I do agree that parents don't need to share with their kids when they are too young or in an unhealthy way. As with everything, there is a right and a wrong way to do this. It's too bad that some people don't know how to do better, but the reality is they don't. That's how the dysfunction gets passed down from one generation to another.

Even so, we need to stop pretending parents (especially mothers) are perfect or need to act as if they are perfect. That expectation, all by itself, is dysfunctional. It is also unreasonable. Parents make mistakes. That's reality. Kids have to deal with the mistakes of their parents. That is also reality. And it's okay, both for mistakes to happen and to talk about it.

Maya Angelou talked about this in reference to herself. She said when she was young, she did the best she could, but made more mistakes than she liked. As she grew older, she learned more and did better.

That's true for all of us. When we know how to do better, we do better.

John Bradshaw made the point (in one of his books) that toxic family secrets that never get discussed are inevitably repeated generation after generation, even though the kids are never told the secrets. That's because the pattern that sets up the need for secrecy is never healed.

I did not know until after my mother died that some of the major mistakes I made were exactly the same as the major mistakes my mother made. I'll never be able to discuss them with her because she was totally silent about them while alive. I wish that was different. I've made it a point to be sure my daughters are not in the same position. If they want to discuss things with me or I with them, it happens. We have a healthier relationship because we can be honest with each other.

I also think that Loretta and I are doing a pretty good job discussing and thinking about what was actually said. You and I are just on opposite ends of this particular spectrum.

I'm not sure you're aware that FCM is the woman who wrote the article, so you can treat anything she writes hear as additional information.

If my daughter posted an article like the one attached that is a direct result of what I told her, it would break my heart that I did that to her.

You are leaving out the autonomy of the daughter. I've made up my own mind about my mother's life. She probably would disagree with a lot of what I believe about it. Same for my grandmothers over the generations, women I never met but have pieced together what I can about them.

But I have an advantage over my mother in that I live in an age where information about gendered power imbalances, dysfunctional family patterns and other cultural influences are better understood than in my mother's era.

Just don't be so adament in that direction that you deprive them of knowing their own history, the history of their parents or of their extended family.

I belong to a family that believes in writing their life stories, which is a wonderful legacy to leave behind. The trouble is too many of them only want to discuss the good times and don't want to include what they view as the bad. But both good events and "bad" events help us become the people we are. Leaving out the bad leaves out the opportunity to admire them for what they've achieved in the face of adversity.

For instance, I adored my Aunt Amy because she lived life so fully. She never spoke of the hardships she'd endured. I'm glad my father shared them with me because knowing only made me adore her more. What did she leave out? That she was abandoned with six kids by a drunken husband, ended up living on the beach in a car that would not run and yet she triumphed, sending all six kids to college and on to great careers. Most of this happened before I was born, so I had no way of knowing without being told. I did know her kids graduated college and had good careers. That is all the more remarkable considering what they went through to get there.

I treasure knowing things like this about my family. Both the good and the bad, both how people perceived them and how they actually felt. It's all good to know. I've made sure my children knew about my mistakes so they would not get passed along to another generation -- and they weren't. So it was a good decision.

Your first example -- yes, she should have told her. That goes a long ways to explaining family dynamics. Why wasn't her grandpa in her life? She could learn a lot from it. If she internalized that it was her fault, then she got the wrong message, perhaps from her mother and perhaps from her own imagination. But she wasn't the one who had sex or got pregnant, nor was she the one who decided pride was more important than family, so it definitely wasn't her fault. Did she ever discuss those feelings with her mother? If not, she should have.

As to your second example, that's not so cut and dried. But don't be surprised if she doesn't figure it out anyway or thinks she is to blame already. Kids pick up on a whole lot we don't give them credit for. Like I said about my mom, she never said she felt trapped (until we were adults) but we all knew it anyway. She didn't even bring it up then except our parents were divorcing and my sibs wanted an explanation. Once she'd said it, everyone felt better because it was not a subject we had to tiptoe around anymore.

Menmye2,

I understand your feelings and respect them, but I would like to add a couple more things:

10.11 That's pretty much my point. I know for a fact that a child, no matter how old, can internalize this stuff.

We all need emotional resilience to survive and prosper. Being unemotional is not emotional resilience. It is the opposite. We learn emotional resilience by watching how others endure hardships. The healthiest thing all of us can do is to stop treating the events of our lives as if they are shameful. Only when something is treated as shameful is it internalized as something that the child should be ashamed of.

Your mom had to have said or did things to make it known that she felt trapped.

Possibly. But there are other ways of expressing things than doing or saying something. Depression is a state that is very expressive. It needs no words or deeds. Being wistful about other parts of life that are never going to be attained is not doing or saying anything. It's a state of mind. Children know how to interpret their parents emotional health and state of mind. It's time we stopped pretending that all of this is hidden behind some mysterious veil. Children are intuitive. It keeps them safe and helps them understand the world around them.

What your grandmother did was heroic. I don't know which decade she made the decision to keep her baby as a single mother, but anytime before 1970, that was a hard, hard decision to make. If it happened in the 1940s, she would have been ostracized by the entire community in most cases. She would have been told that no "decent man" would every want her because she was "damaged goods." In the 1950s, she would have been expected to give her baby up for adoption or submit to a shotgun wedding. If she didn't, she would have been shamed everywhere she went both because she got pregnant out of wedlock and because she dared to raise her own child. By the late 1960s, that attitude was beginning to ease up but not by much. Single mothers were still whores in the eyes of most everyone. So she had tremendous courage to keep and raise her child. She knew what she was going to face for the rest of her life and did it anyway.

After 1970, the attitudes began to ease among the younger set, but it still wasn't easy being a single mom, not just because of the financial hardships but because of the judgemental attitudes in our society. Someone who is young today would have a hard time imagining what it was like. I'll give you one example from our own family. My parents divorced in the late 1960s. My younger sister was told by a cousin that none of us kids were any longer a part of his family, we were all bastards (not dad's view at all, but from his brother's family. Ironically, his brother would never have approved of that, but he'd been dead for a long while). This after a 28 year marriage, so what chance for acceptance for a never married mother? Very little.

You too were heroic. It was not an easy decision to make: to choose between your child and the man you loved. He lost out on life with a tremendous woman. I'm proud to know you and to know about your grandmother.

I find it very sad that your family internalized your grandmother's heroic choice as shameful. I hope you aren't doing the same.

I did misunderstand, but that doesn't change my perception of her. I'm glad your grandmother found happiness, but that doesn't change her heroism. It isn't easy to be disowned by your father for a simple mistake. She stood up and went on with her life. From the sounds of it, she did well despite being ostracized. That's to her credit. Why shouldn't she share it? She had every right to be both hurt and proud.

I can understand that. It's very personal what happens in our families. Often we are hurt even when no hurt was intended but too often hurt is intended. Either way, it's hard to move beyond it.

I'm glad I have been able to overcome some of the hurts from my childhood. I'd like to think most of it but perhaps I flatter myself.

I took the time to read up on family dysfunction and how it gets passed down from generation to generation, so you are right to want to be sure it does not happen for another generation. I applaud you for that stance. I made the same decision.

An important step for me was to let it go, not for them, but for myself. The wrongs inflicted on me were still hurting me long after they were dead or gone out of my life. I decided to "forgive" (not really a good word, IMO) so I could let it go and feel better. More important, it allowed me to change how I felt about it. I can't change the events of my life, but I can change how I feel about them.

Your mother obviously made some critical mistakes that adversely affected you and the same with her mother with her. I hope you find peace with that at some point and don't need to feel so adament about sharing yourself with your children. No, you don't need to and shouldn't "dump" on them. But you've already proven you know how to do better than your mother and grandmother did, so I have every confidence you wouldn't make that same mistake if you did decide to share at some point.

You're doing a good job and deserve the kudos for taking the path you've chosen. I hope you can embrace the pride you should feel, both for raising your kids alone and for consciously choosing a path that is different than the one your family has passed down through the generations.

I also hope you allow your children to see this side of yourself because it says a lot of great things about you -- when you are ready and when they are old enough.