Freedom from Sexual Self-Denial: Why Not Have Sex With People Who Aren't Your Partner?

So I guess if he thinks it's none of his business who you sleep with -- it is also none of your business who he sleeps with?

I would worry about STD's.

LOL. No. I told him he's not allowed to sleep with anyone else.

But I'm not really the jealous type when it comes to sex...just love. I'd let him have a bouncy-fun friend if he wanted. I wasn't jealous of my first husbands mistresses and would hang out with them. I used to kid one girl that I was going to get her a t-shirt that said "The Mistress" and I'd wear one that said "The Wife". We thought it was funny.

My current husband has no interest in other women, so it really isn't an issue. He had gone a very long time without dating when we met...out of sheer lack of interest in most people.

I would worry about STD's.

Being in an open relationship doesn't mean you're careless. Because things are done above board, I think its even easier to discuss things like safer sex practices and histories. I know many people involved in polyamorus relationships or who swing and they are pretty fastidious about STD's and keeping clean.

Kaviaq:

I'm sorry for your experience with the first husband. I've seen a lot of people try to do the same thing, i.e. have an open relationship and really mean that they get to sleep around, but not their partner. I've also seen it self destruct.

It's one reason why the first thing you have to do is be really honest with yourself and your partner about what you want. Once you've figured that out, a lot of bad situations can be avoided while still allowing for room for you to live as you wish to live and love as you wish to love.

It's a shame that your first husband couldn't do that; you sound like a heck of a woman. Both you and your current husband sound very lucky.

Isn't infidelity what they used to call being unfaithful or adultery? Isn't it your own selfish sexual desire you are satisfying when you do that?

Monogamy is celebrated because usually you made a promise to someone or have a mutual understanding to be faithful to them. And temptation can be great to break faith with someone and make a sexual conquest. It takes a strength of will or measure of grace to be a faithful spouse or monogamous partner which is why it is celebrated in most cultures.

You can view fidelity as a form of sexual self denial if you're so inclined. Or you can find out that fidelity can be emotionally and sexually rewarding to both you and your spouse and partner.

Isn't infidelity what they used to call being unfaithful or adultery?

It's still what they call it. But if two people who want to be together agree that monogamy isn't important to either of them, is that a bad thing in and of itself? I personally don't think so.

Isn't it your own selfish sexual desire you are satisfying when you do that?

No more than when you're having sex with only one person.

No more than when you're having sex with only one person.

Lord Fluffy,

No, I meant when you are cheating on your marriage or sexual partner by sleeping with someone else. You are just considering your own desires rather than your marriage/relationship or mate/significant. That is quite selfish.

So, Fluffy, you never have a problem with people being in sexual relationship with you, (I presume you are not married, or if you are, then committing adultery) and cheating on you and sleeping with other people?

No, I meant when you are cheating on your marriage or sexual partner by sleeping with someone else....

I would contend it's only cheating if everyone involved is not on the same page, in agreement and approve. Just sleeping with someone else besides your spouse alone I do not feel is cheating. I get that it's taboo by modern Judeo Christian values, but there are other paths and other opinions.

My point was sleeping with multiple partners is no more inherently selfish that sleeping with a single partner. It would only be selfish if your partner was against it or was hurt by it.

So, Fluffy, you never have a problem with people being in sexual relationship with you... and cheating on you and sleeping with other people?

Of course I would have a problem with them cheating on me. I just apparently have a different definition of "cheating" than you do.

People I know who are in open or multiple partner relationships would get hurt if their partner(s) slept with someone and hid it or slept with someone they mutually agreed was off limits for whatever reason.

As to my marital status, that's not much of your business. I'd rather not make this more personal than it already is.

As to my marital status, that's not much of your business.

I never inquired as to your marital status. Because apparently that makes no difference to you.

I'd rather not make this more personal than it already is.

You're the one putting out here.

I just apparently have a different definition of "cheating" than you do.

No kidding!

My point was sleeping with multiple partners is no more inherently selfish that sleeping with a single partner.

Yes, it is. It seems that people who practice immorality are so often taken aback when their selfishness is exposed. You can't act like a fool and have people give you the prize for being truly wise. When you are faithful, you are considering your spouse or partner before yourself. When you are practising sexual infidelity, you are only concerned about yourself and your own fleshly gratification. That includes "open marriages" and the like, they're just instances of 2 majorly selfish people in relationship to one another.

Just sleeping with someone else besides your spouse alone I do not feel is cheating. I get that it's taboo by modern Judeo Christian values, but there are other paths and other opinions.

Oh yes? In what paths, or in whose well regarded opinion, is infidelity valued and esteemed more highly than fidelity to one's spouse or romantic partner? In every modern society, the former is denounced, while the latter extolled.

I'll take this opportunity to respond to something you once wrote to me about Christ and His parable of the Bridegroom and the ten virgins in Matt 25. The parable is not advocating multiple marriages, as you supposed. Jesus already having defined and confirmed what marriage was and what adultery was for us in Matt 19:5 Rather it is highlighting the wisdom of the 5 virgins who had oil in their lamps and were ready for the bridegrooms return.

Because apparently that makes no difference to you.

Actually, being married or not makes a great deal of difference to me. I just happen to think you can do so with more than one person. But on this point, we've disagreed before.

As to the rest of the talk about selfishness and infidelity, you've already arrived at the conclusion before the question is asked. In your worldview, the only valid expression of love or sexual desire is marriage between one man and one woman. You presume to know the minds and hearts of people you've never met and thus can ascribe their motivations.

The simple fact is you are wrong. Unless you've become the worlds greatest mind reader, I'm not sure how you can assert otherwise.

You say:

It seems that people who practice immorality are so often taken aback when their selfishness is exposed.

...but you cannot demonstrate how it is selfish. People who carry on multiple person relationships are often considering more than one person before themselves. It requires time management skills, but it does not require selfishness.

In what paths, or in whose well regarded opinion, is infidelity valued and esteemed more highly than fidelity to one's spouse or romantic partner?

Wow. The number of leading statements.

I never said "valued and esteemed more highly". Many cultures have practiced multiple partner relationships in the past. I personally think polyamory is a modern innovation in it's current form, i.e. both genders having multiple partners within the same relationship, but the concept is not new. Just ask Solomon.

Also, infidelity or cheating involves breaking confidences and vows. If no vow is broken because the promise of monogamy was never made and if everyone is aware of what's going on, so no confidences are broken, how is it breaking the rules?

And as for what society extolls, it once extolled women for keeping silent and men for beating their wives with a stick no bigger than their thumb. Hardly a good standard by which to judge one's actions, I'd say.

And lastly, the language in the parable is "brides", not "virgins". And if they were not waiting to marry the bridegroom, then what were they waiting for?

RoR, you and I are not going to agree on this I know. I'm not expecting you to. My personal worldview doesn't require your justification and yours doesn't require mine. But if you are going to malign a subculture, then I'd suggest you bring more than accusations.

So, can you demonstrate this selfishness beyond your own personal opinion?

My point was sleeping with multiple partners is no more inherently selfish that sleeping with a single partner.

Yes, it is. It seems that people who practice immorality are so often taken aback when their selfishness is exposed.

Rank,

it isn't cheating if both partners agree to it ahead of time. Not everyone values monogamy. It is wrong to lie to your partner, but if everyone involved WANTS to have extra-marital affairs...then no one is getting hurt (unless they are into that kind of thing *wink*).

I do have to recant on thing I said in 6.10; Matthew 25 does read "virgins" in the KJV and NIV, not "brides". My bad.

I still would like to know why 10 virgins are waiting for a bridegroom if they are not betrothed to him.

I still would like to know why 10 virgins are waiting for a bridegroom if they are not betrothed to him.

Fluffy,

(Sorry for the delay in my response to your post. I didn't have a spare moment.)

Harems were not uncommon among the Gentiles in those days. Although no Jew would have more than one wife. This is a parable not a commandment of Christ to multiple person marriages.

If you read the context starting from about Matthew 34:36 through Matthew 25, you will note that Jesus is prophesying of His return and exorting believers to be ready. The 10 virgins are representative of the Church of Jesus Christ. In Scripture, the Church is referred to as the Bride and Christ is called the Bridegroom. In the parable in question, where 5 virgins are wise and 5 virgins foolish, means that many who call themselves Christians will not be ready for the return of Jesus.

Not everyone values monogamy. It is wrong to lie to your partner, but if everyone involved WANTS to have extra-marital affairs.

Kavlaq,

Thank you for your perspective. I don't have to tell you that it is so far from my way of thinking as to be completely foreign. I didn't know people like you and Lord Fluffy really existed. It's a sign of the end times.

In the parable in question, where 5 virgins are wise and 5 virgins foolish....

I know what they represent, but not thinking that your God would speak idle words, I'm thinking there's a reason He chose that scenario.

A may looks at another woman with lust, he commits adultery. What if he looks at her with love?

I didn't know people like you and Lord Fluffy really existed. It's a sign of the end times.

It's just social change, the same as when we stopped Primus Noctae or started accepting interracial relationships.

Though I thank you. I've never been called a sign of the apocalypse. Something new to put in my bio.

I know what they represent, but not thinking that your God would speak idle words, I'm thinking there's a reason He chose that scenario.

What idle words? He spoke earnestly to warn the Churches to be ready for His coming! You may not care. But to Christians, that's a BIG DEAL. I'm sure you've heard the expression, "Left Behind".

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

All of these warnings surround the parable of the 10 virgins.

They are no "idle" threat.

What I mean is that he chose that scenario to demonstrate his return for a reason, not just willy-nilly. So do you have some historical insight that would suggest it is anything other than a group of virgins waiting for their bridegroom?

If they represent the Church (the Bride of Christ) and the Bridegroom is Christ, that alone would seem to suggest they were waiting to marry him. I don't think God incarnate would choose an iniquitous act (i.e. a multiple person marriage) to demonstrate His message about his return.

Admittedly, this is all intepretation and all basing that the parable has arrived intact to us, not to mention the fact that our discussion is absent any special insight about the social framework in which the parable was being spoken. I could be wrong. But if the literal aspect of the parable is not virgins waiting for the man they will all marry and the man only choosing those who were prepared for His arrival, then what is it?

I don't think God incarnate would choose an iniquitous act (i.e. a multiple person marriage) to demonstrate His message about his return.

Oh, is that what you're getting at?

Admittedly, this is all intepretation and all basing that the parable has arrived intact to us

Yeah, that's right the orgy scenes that appear in the satanic version have been omitted for the sake of brevity. And of course truth.

I could be wrong.

No, you? Not you, Fluffy! Have you been wrong before?

But if the literal aspect of the parable is not virgins waiting for the man they will all marry and the man only choosing those who were prepared for His arrival, then what is it?

Hello? Hello, isn't anybody there?

Fluffy, it is vitally important when reading the Bible to take into account the context surrounding the portion of Scripture. The parable clearly ends, in verse 13, with the sobering admonition to

"Watch, [meaning be vigilant] therefore".

The word 'therefore' indicates the purpose for the entire parable was to stress that the churches of Christ be ready for their Lord's coming.

There is NO tacit sanctioning of multiple person marriages by Christ Who is God incarnate in that parable or any other.

Yeah, that's right the orgy scenes that appear in the satanic version have been omitted for the sake of brevity. And of course truth.

I was more suggesting that "virgins" might have not been the exact term in the original telling, which may have clarified the scenario a bit more.

I swear, people who dream up iniquities to deride seem to have a better imagination for sin than the people who they think commit them.

No, you? Not you, Fluffy! Have you been wrong before?

At least once or twice.

Hello? Hello, isn't anybody there?

Yes there is. There's a difference between the literal and the subtext. The message concering the second coming is subtext. The literal meaning is what I've been asking about.

There is NO tacit sanctioning of multiple person marriages by Christ Who is God incarnate in that parable or any other.

I see it differently. I'm not the only one.

It's not my religion, so there's only so much I really care what Christian doctrine or custom dictates, but if you're arguing that Christianity has never been in favor of multiple person relationships, I think that Matthew 25 along with a lot of the Old Testament may require some creative interpretation to back up that point.

I'll give you the last word on this Rank.

Peace.

I'll give you the last word on this Rank.

I was hoping I wouldn't need it, but you backed me into a corner with:

"but if you're arguing that Christianity has never been in favor of multiple person relationships,"

Not unless you are or were once a member of the Mormon Church.

"I think that Matthew 25 along with a lot of the Old Testament may require some creative interpretation to back up that point."

You are taking one passage out of the New Testament which has more to do with being ready for Christ's coming than anything else, and which is contradicted by every verse on the subject of marriage in the New Testament to make your point. If you ever find one or two more Scriptures from the New Testament that back you up, I'm all ears.

"There's a difference between the literal and the subtext. The message concering the second coming is subtext. The literal meaning is what I've been asking about."

The literal meaning is the practical one. Be ready!

"I swear, people who dream up iniquities to deride seem to have a better imagination for sin than the people who they think commit them."

Yes, we Christians make great lovers! But we don't have to "dream up iniquities to deride," (very nicely phrased,) if it is contrary to the Bible, and most especially the New Testament, it is wrong, and most especially so for Christians.

Do you have any belief system? Buddhist or Hindu or other?

I didn't know people like you and Lord Fluffy really existed. It's a sign of the end times.

LOL. Yes...sex will bring about the apocalypse! They don't call it "earth-shattering" for nothing y'know! Do orgies and gay sex make it come even faster (The apocalypse I mean *grin*)??

*sigh* No wonder religious people are so uptight.....

Do you have any belief system? Buddhist or Hindu or other?

As I said that I'd give you the last word, I'll not go back on it and discuss the topics we've been going over. But as you asked what appears to be a sincere question, I will give you an answer.

Yes, I do have a belief system. Out of the choices you gave, it would be "other". If you'd like further details, feel free to message me directly.

Peace.

So LordFluffy, wanna come over for a pre-apocalyptic orgy??

*smile* I'll have to check with the wife first, but I think I have that day free.

If he was, I don't even know how I would go about finding a guy who would want sex, but not a relationship??

Adultfriendfinder.com

But really where CAN'T you find a guy interested in sex but no relationship?! College campuses must be full of them!! *grin*

But really where CAN'T you find a guy interested in sex but no relationship?!

lol. I know that is the stereotype, but I'm not sure it's true.

College campuses must be full of them!! *grin*

I'm not sure they're after 26 year olds with husbands and A-cups =)

PS. Your husband sounds like a KEEPer!!

If he was, I don't even know how I would go about finding a guy who would want sex, but not a relationship??

Aside from the web, there are clubs for this sort of thing and private parties. If you look, its not an uber hard community to plug into.

Though for the record, not every open relationship is about sex without love (which is one of the big distinctions between swinging and polyamory) and I don't know anyone who seeks out sex primarily because they find their primary partner unsatisfying; some even find that having an additional partner invigorates their sex lives with their primary partner.

This is a pretty expansive topic and the motivations and methods are almost as varied as the number of participants in the lifestyles. It's certainly, as said in the article, not for everyone.

But there's nothing wrong with monogamy, either. If you're into that sort of thing. *smile*

I'm not sure they're after 26 year olds with husbands and A-cups =)

Never be so sure. Everybody is somebody's fetish.

I'm not sure they're after 26 year olds with husbands and A-cups =)

I'd bet money they'd just LOVE a 26 year-old....with any size cup!

PS. Your husband sounds like a KEEPer!!

He is. 6 years now and we are deliriously happy!

He is. 6 years now and we are deliriously happy!

Is it okay if I hate you just a little? ;-)

Is it okay if I hate you just a little? ;-)

LOL, sure. We joke about how our love has the added benefit of making other people ill! Particularly my mother who spends her visits making wretching noises.

Oh my lord weRdoomed - I can't believe that you HAVEN'T been offered sex, by every waiter, male mechanic, male school mate, essentially every straight male that you have encountered. I didn't think women had to "look" for sex, I thought that sex looked for them.

I do not have enough sex with my wife either, and I consider myself lucky if I have time to - ummm - take matters into my own hands.

I'm not sure they're after 26 year olds with husbands and A-cups =)

Let me help you out there - men are after a willing female with a pulse! Most would consider a 26 year old with a husband a bonus!

I didn't think women had to "look" for sex, I thought that sex looked for them.

LOL, that's what I thought. The only pick up line I've ever needed was "Wanna??"

I didn't think women had to "look" for sex

Well, I'll admit, I never directly asked a guy if he wanted to @!$%#. I mean, I've been asked out a lot -- less with a ring on the finger.

But, again, I am married, I cannot have a relationship with a man. What am I supposed to do when a guy asks if I want to get dinner "No, but I wouldn't mind @!$%#ing before I go home and make dinner for my husband."??

It's unrealistic. I'd sound like a whore.

It's unrealistic. I'd sound like a whore.

Not so much. I've known people who've had much the same conversation.

It does lead to some situations that Emily Post just never got around to covering, but dirty is a state of mind. It's only obscene if you think it is.

Not trying to convince you to take up a new lifestyle, just pointing out it's not all shameful. There are people that live that way, right now, probably not too far from where you live and many of them are perfectly happy living that way.

Point taken weRdoomed - I think that a discrete website like adultfriendfinder.com is what you are looking for.

Adultfriendfinder.com

There's also Ashley Madison.com. That's supposedly completely anonymous.

Reviews I've read of AshleyMadison.com say it's a scam.

For the record, never give your personal information to a site that's advertising it can make it easy for you to have an affair.

Perhaps Tiger Woods should have used one of those sites? ; )

I wouldn't do anything outside my marriage unless we agreed upon it. But it I discuss itwith him, I'm likely to damage the relationship just as badly as if I had done something. You can't take back certain words =)