Judith Orloff MD: How to Deal With a Narcissist (VIDEO)

You're right. The effects of drugs can mimic several different personality disorders. For instance, meth users often display traits of schizophrenia but they go away once they sober up.

The problem with staying with a drug user, even a sober one, is that the user has to address the underlying issues that caused them to choose drugs in the first place. The other person can't do that for them.

Sure does sound like he's a narcissist. Does it feel good to find it out after he's long gone? I was both upset (that I'd married one) and comforted (because it confirmed my own feelings about him). And yes, he was long gone by then.

I haven't found any good parenting books on that yet but I'm still searching.

That's a good point. We need books like that. It is so hard for a child to adjust to a parent who is violent, who is mentally ill, who is addicted, who just isn't interested, who makes false promises, etc. You'd think there'd be some out there.

Yes, she needs that. It does help to talk to them truthfully about what is going on, but it has to be done in a way where he can't make it worse by claiming you're "alienating" her from him.

That is a common claim by abusers. They never admit that the one doing the alienation is themselves by their abusive behavior.

If he has a substance abuse problem, that might be a place to start. A common explanation there is that it is the drugs talking, that the addict would be different if they were sober. That doesn't entirely satisfy me, but it does give comfort to kids who have a hard time sorting it all out. I always try to add information about their particular addiction, how it affects the brain and how brain disorders can cause addictions.

As we learn more about brain disorders, which also can cause abusive behavior, this should become easier to discuss because we can depersonalize it and discuss general medical information.

I've been divorced since the early 1970s. I was his first wife. He's had several since then and even more girlfriends. Every single one that has contacted me or my child by him has also been abused. I'm sure that's true of all those I haven't heard directly about. But he still insists it isn't him. It's all of us women who are just terrible and failed to treat him right.

ROTFLOL. Okay, gottcha.

Your daughter knows who is being fair and who isn't. She can compare how you act vs. what he says about you.

You might want to see if there is an age appropriate book that would talk about drinking and how it affects people. It wouldn't even have to mention fathers. She'd make the connection anyway.

I love the fact he's got to go to court on your bday. You can bet it galls him even more than it normally would, though, so be careful. I remember one time when I did finally get the DA to "press" charges. He'd tried to strangle me and they were still dragging their feet. But I wouldn't relent, so he sent him a postcard asking him to go in for a meeting. He was furious because it arrived just before our ex-anniversary date. I'd planned it that way, don't ya know, even though I'd filed immediately and it wasn't my fault the DA waited months to do anything.

Wow. I am proud of your community. I belong to a discussion group for VD advocates. Can I share your comment there? I believe some of them are from your state. It is always encouraging to hear that the efforts are making a positive impact.

I'm in California. I remember the first time I sat in court next to a DV victim and heard the judge give these guys a restraining order and walk them through each provision, one after another, making sure they understood they'd going to jail if they violated it. I sat there long after her case had been heard. It was like being bathed in something wonderful.

Contrast that with how it was when I was married. The cops wouldn't respond, even with a restraining order. Even after NOW sued them and won, forcing them to respond, they wouldn't arrest him, even when he admitted the violence he'd inflicted. When I insisted it go to the DA, the DA would chastise me for wanting him prosecuted. It wasn't against me personally. It was against all women who were battered. The new law, taking the options out of their hands, made a huge difference as did the training.

Thanks. I sent it. I also invited them to read or post here. Don't know if they'll have time to post, but it would be great, wouldn't it?

Writing is so very therapuetic for me. Emotions that keep roiling around inside go away once I've written about them and the circumstances that created them.

The voices of victims were silenced for centuries. In effect, their suffering, their very existence was erased from memory. It kept all victims isolated, feeling very alone. So I think it is important for victims to have a voice, to record what they've been through and to speak about it publicly. There is a comfort in knowing others have been there too -- and survived. We can also share info on how to get out and how to recover. If we're willing to talk about it.

I haven't heard of that book. Is it by surviors or abusers?

There are websites that are devoted to giving victims and survivors a place to publish or to participate in discussions. You might want to check them out.

The facts are important as is a timeline, especially since you are in the process of going to court, etc. They will be good reference for you.

They will also bring back memories, emotions, etc from each incident. I found that remembering one incident brought up other memories, sometimes of lesser incidents that didn't seem as important because there was no or lesser physical injuries, but ultimately I realized the emotional injuries were longer lasting and caused more pain than the physical stuff.

Fpr ,e. one of the hardest things to accept was that it wasn't personal. Sure as hell felt personal. But he went on to victimize so many others. As I read more about it, I realized he was stuck in his own dysfunctional pattern. That who I was, what I did or didn't do, what I said or didn't say, were not important at all. For him, I. as a person, did not exist on any real level in his world. I was no more than a cardboard cutout doll he could act out his stuff against and blame for his problems.

Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday. Had to do some work on Moondance.

You might be interested in one of Patricia Evan's books. She focuses mainly on verbal and emotional abuse. I learned a lot from the one I bought. She has several out. Here's her website:

http://verbalabuse.com

It's pretty revealing how often people engage in verbal abuse without even realizing it. Of course, this is the foundation that leads to other abuses.

She has pages that deal with verbal abuse in all kinds of situtations, like religious abuse, bullying at school, abuse in an office, etc, but mostly she focuses on personal relationships. She has links to her own videos on utube.

We need to start publicly discussing psychological violence. It destroys people by attacking them deep in the soul, aiming at destroying their very identity.

Not mine either. I believe we're at one with the universe, but I don't believe I need to sit still and wait to see if someone out there notices.

We need to change the discussion to how we can't be expected to be omnipowerful detectives who can ferret out abusers before any abuse occurs. That's silly. No one else is expected to achieve that state of perfection or omniscience. Why should victims of DV be held to a different standard? None of these guys wear a sign on their forehead stating how they act toward women or what their problems are. Abusers are great at hiding them during courtship and only let them slide out into common view after they believe they have their victim trapped.

I don't know about you, but my ex never confided over dinner, "If you marry me, I'm going to blame you for all my problems and batter you when I'm frustrated. Is that okay with you?"

The focus should not be on "why does she stay?" because often (as you pointed out) she isn't staying. She isn't freely involved. He's tracking her down when she leaves. He's intent on forcing her to come back. He's intent on terrorizing her or destroying her life so she has no choice. Why aren't we discussing that?

My ex sliced my tires in the parking lot of the place where I worked. He called everyday, knowing full well they would not put the calls through and I would get in trouble because personal calls weren't allowed. He stole my car and ruined the transmission. He stole my truck, drained the oil out, then drove it until the motor froze up. He knew I was working nights and tried to sleep while the kids were in school, so he called and called and called, preventing me from getting any sleep. If I didn't answer, he'd come over and wake me to "be sure you're all right." When I wasn't home, he'd break into my home and steal my stuff, including stuff that had no monetary value but which I treasured anyway.

I had filed for divorce and had a restraining order, so no, I wasn't setting myself up for all of this hell. So why aren't we asking why they do these things instead of asking why we are complict in their abuse?

Prior to marrying him, I was young and naive. I didn't know the signs to look for. Isn't that a quality they look for? So why aren't we discussing that?

As you can tell, I get frustrated at the assumptions about abused women that may be true for some but certainly can never be true for all.

I would like to read it. If nothing else, it would give me insight into their thoughts. I've found that many of the people who write about DV have no experience that qualifies them. They may be psychologists but they've never experienced it. Never been a victim or worked with victims (at least not in a way they really listen to the victims). All they know is theory.

I'm a horse person. This happens in the horse world too. People want to be recognized as an expert but don't have practical experience. I've run into vets who have a great academic background but I can diagnose a horse better than they can because they've never worked with horses. They were city kids who dreamed of horses and decided to go to vet school. I can look at a horse, how he acts, how he moves and know, "he has this or that." They need xrays, etc because they have no feel for the horse and how he experiences his world, even though they love them.

There are many people who want to help with DV but they don't have the practical experience. They have book learning. That might be what's wrong with the book you have. They mean well, but they aren't reading the situation correctly.

Now that would be a discussion I would find very interesting. What can I look for? What qualities do they typically look for?

I have Gavin de Becker's book, The Gift of Fear. He runs a bodyguard company for the stars. He wrote this about external dangers, the rapist on the street, etc. I learned a lot from it about avoiding potential abusers. Many advocates are angry because his advice is being used to blame victims once again. That's the wrong way to use it. But here are some of his points that I believe we need to address as a society.

We are the only species that teaches their females to ignore their instincts. If you watch a herd of horses eating in a pasture, they'll suddenly take off in full flight as a unit. They stop quite a ways away and look back to see what the danger was. Sometimes there was no danger, one member of the herd spotted something odd and alerted the others. They don't wait to find out if what is odd is also dangerous. They respect their instincts and get away from the area without questioning their judgement. After they know they are safe, then they look back and assess the situation.

What do we do? We teach girls they need to be nice in all situations, including where they feel uncomfortable or in danger, that being nice is more important than being safe -- especially when it comes to how they treat boys. The boys insult them. They're supposed to react nicely. The boys punch their arm. They're supposed to react nicely.

We need to do the opposite and teach them to follow their instincts. If they feel uncomfortable, get away fast. Don't wait until some guy is close enough to grab hold before they react. It's too late.

Another point he made was to beware the too charming guy. These guys use charisma to mask their defects. A guy who is honest or harmless doesn't need excessive charm or to hide who he is.

Women need to be proactive in controlling the contact right from the beginning. They need to spot small signals that he is disrespecting what you want or need. If he shows up in the apartment building parking lot and offers to help carry the groceries, she should assume he's up to no good. He may not be, but she is safer by assuming he is. If she says, "No thanks" and he insists, he's just disrespected her decision. That's a warning sign.

On a dating basis, what about the guy who insists on ordering for her at dinner, even when she objects? I changed my mind about a guy because he called my daughter and told her he wanted to relandscape my backyard as a surprise. We were out riding, and I'd admired some roses climbing along a white fence. On that alone, he thought he had the right to come onto my property and plant a rose garden. Never mind that it was my property, that I didn't want a rose garden (and never said I did) and that he tried to get my daughter to help him invade my space and privacy. He assumed he had the right to ignore or override me. Fortunately, she told him that would make me angry, so he better not and then told me what he wanted to do.

Now, he was always a gentlemen while we were together, and I didn't completely break off a friendship, but I put quite a bit of distance between us that wasn't there before.

One of the things I found most important back then was to refuse to allow him to turn me into someone I did not want to be. I kept a plaque of Socrates statement close to me, "To thine own self be true."

That is important in many ways. He wanted me to make decisions that favored him and harmed me. To thine own self be true.

He tried to provoke me into being violent back. To thine own self be true.

He tried to get me to believe I was a "bad" person who "deserved" his abuse. To thine own self be true.

That one phrase really helped me keep focused on how I defined my Self and kept me inspired to live up to my own expectations.

I refused to live in fear, although that is what he wanted and even what others tried to impose upon me. I grew up in this valley. All my friends and family were here. All the places I cared about. He was new to the valley, had no history here and did not care about the community. Yet the cops, DA, etc all told me I needed to leave if I didn't want his continual interference in my life. That would have made life easy for him and them, but hell for me. Why should I have to give up all that I love and hide in fear?

I refused. I made them do their job, no matter how much they condemned me for it. I eventually won because of child support. He moved away to avoid having to pay it. I didn't care what worked. I knew before I filed for divorce I'd never get child support, so that was no big loss. Having him out of state was a huge gain.

I also refused to become violent, although I certainly could have. That isn't me and I refused to let him force me to become someone I would hate being.

So yes, our spirituality is important. It is often all we have left. We should not and cannot let it go. Nor should we change what we believe based upon how this other irrational person acts. I did not change my belief in the Divine, but I did change my belief about those who pretend to speak for the Divine and create a lot of harm with their false beliefs about women and their role in life.

One thing I've learned over the years, by reading psych profiles of batterers, is that they need their victims far more than their victims need them. That's why they are so desperate to force their victims to stay.

They depend upon their victims to keep their life held together, to solve their problems, etc. But they also need to pretend they are the strong ones. In physical strength, that may be true, but it is not true for emotional strength and resiliance. I get so tired of the portrayals of victims as weak women. They are the strongest women I know. They've figured out how to live amid chaos and keep going. They develop an emotional resiliance that even they are not aware they have.

I know I didn't. I felt emotionally exhuasted and unable to endure any more for a long while after I left him. But I did endure. I did survive. I did have the resiliance, strength and determination to do that. I learned, from being in natural disasters, that those feelings are normal during adversity of any kind. So again, victims are being singled out to be told they don't have what it takes even when they do.

Studies on employees find that the most stress on the job occurs when someone has responsibility for something but no authority to resolve problems. That's exactly what victims of abuse face every day. Their abuser retains all authority but puts all responsibility for problem solving on them. That's not a winnable situation. No one can resolve problems unless they have the authority to resolve those problems.

However, that's another tactic made to keep the abuser feeling more powerful than his victim and keep her feeling less powerful and unable to fight back.

Now I'm sure they don't think it through on that level. It's more of a learned strategy that works under their radar.

But our society is complicit when we allow the victim to continue to be portrayed as the weak one when she is clearly the stronger of the two.