15-year-old raped in court: Rapist gets probation, teen gets 12 months

A matter of someone using the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome to his own despicable advantage hey? What's even more sad is that he got off with a lighter sentence for a more egregious crime than those committed by his victims.

WTF??? This is horrible!

See...if someone did that to me, and then got off pretty much scott free...I'd have to shoot him in the @!$%#ing face. I am SO not kidding about that.

First, I am not saying that the man deserved such a light sentence. But the way this is framed by this article is misleading. On first blush reading this account you would assume that they hauled them up before a judge and he decrees "You get a year in prison for forgetting to sign a form. And YOU have admitted to raping her and 3 other people so you will get to walk out a free man (plus probation)"

Let's be fair to the system to the extent that it deserves it and critical of it where that is warranted.

The girl was sentenced to a year in prison for whatever it was she did (no official word on what exactly her crime was) 3 years before anyone in the criminal justice system knew that this guy was abusing girls. I gather she was a minor at the time of her arrest and conviction because I cannot find any information about her or her criminal record. So all we know about the crime she committed and her sentencing comes from her.

She definitely deserves justice for the crime this guy committed against her. But we have no reason to believe that her sentence of 12 months for the crime she committed was unfair. She claims it was for something silly like filing a false police report. That could mean anything, it could be mean giving false information in an investigation to conceal the whereabouts of a murderer. We don't know if this was her first or her 50th offence.

All of that said, the man deserves a cruel and unusual punishment for what he did.

I always said that too, but when it actually happens to your kid, it just isn't that easy. You would probably not shoot them. You would just suffer the worst kind of pain imaginable while being unable to do a god damned thing about it as your whole town shunned your kid and your kid became a laughing stock. Nobody ever really believes the victim when it happens. Ever. They torture the victims, if they have money they try to pay off the victims, they buy support and then the perps walk away.

Let's be fair to the system to the extent that it deserves it and critical of it where that is warranted.

But we have no reason to believe that her sentence of 12 months for the crime she committed was unfair.

You're kidding, right? The article said that she filed a police report and then refused to name the person who assaulted her. For that she gets 12 months. The guy who was convicted of raping 3 girls pled out for probation. That is blatantly unfair and a serious miscarriage of justice.

yadda--

The crime she was sentenced for was completely unrelated to the rape.

Read the full story ( http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/10/03/2010-10-03_raped_by_judge_and_justice_system.html )

In 2005 she had already been convicted of her crime of filing a false police report, before she ever met the man who raped her. The assault happened on her way to sentencing. And she did not report it.

The man continued his aweful criminal activity for 3 years, until a 15 year old girl turned him in in 2008. They contacted this young woman in 2008, and only then did anyone become aware that she had been raped 3 years earlier.

You can't fault the sentence she received in 2005 on the grounds of "They should have showed her leniency because in 3 years they will find out she had been the victim of a horrible attack". And you can't claim that her judge was biased based on this report because he is certainly a different judge than the guy who sentenced the rapist.

Again, the guy deserves a much harsher punishment. I'm in favor of making aggravated rape a capital crime. At the very lease a 10 year minimum sentence somewhere dark.

But that doesn't mean she received an unfair sentence.

benkyouburrito, I understand that. I am commenting on the disparity of the sentencing. Yes, I can fault the justice system for sentencing her to 12 months for something ridiculous like that when you have rapists, etc, walking away with probation.

Shakes my head with disgust!

It's a good thing for Tony Simmons that I'm not Ashley's father.

And yes, I have a daughter, and a step-daughter. Heaven help anyone who hurts either of them.

Loretta, I'm signing the petition. I've lost an aunt to the long-continuing echoes of abuse, and nearly lost a mother. Reading that little account made my blood run cold . . . I have no idea how someone can do something like that and still pretend he's a man.

This is unbelievable.

benkyouburito, are you more concerned about the sentence given to the girl for filing a false police report or the sentence that was given to a rapist?

Don't ever be afraid, scream it loud. It will never end, unless you make it. Stand up for your self, make everybody else listen. If they don't listen then it is their fault and they are the ones to blame. Then pray, and let God take care of the rest.

the man is evil.

This sickens me. I firmly believe that raping a child should be a capital offense. I almost feel like picking a fight with "Tyson" so that he would violate his probation and would end up in prison - where he can experience rape on the other side. This gets me so angry.

It's a story you read and say, this can't happen in America, but you know it does and it happens more often than reported. A beautiful World with to many sick people in trusted positions. I'm still in favor off medieval dungeons, where the light of day never shines. People like this belong in them.

Liberal judges do this kind of thing all the time, there was a rapist in New Mexico a few years ago who had been convicted 7 times rape and only got 4 years on the eight convection.

The jerk (using mild language here) deserves to be in jail and get treated like most rapists that have raped young teenage girls do in prison. Sadly, he plead guilty and convinced the judge that he should get probation and register as a sex offender. He did so in order to keep from being treated as he knew he would be treated. Let's just say it wouldn't have been pretty.

Jim-789449

Liberal judges do this kind of thing all the time, there was a rapist in New Mexico a few years ago who had been convicted 7 times rape and only got 4 years on the eight convection.

Jim, it is conservative judges who punish rape victims twice, first by letting the attacker get a slap on the wrist and then by denying the victim access to a rape kit and an abortion-at your expense.

Of course you should pay for the abortion-especially since you wish to neither feed nor educate the one you claim has a right to live. But, that poor child was raped? "Aw! Too bad! Let her give it up for adoption."

You righties and your hypocrisy are simply disgusting.

"Ridiculous" is an understatement.

MG,

Where are the statistics that back up your claims? There have been several studies that back Jim's claims over the years about how criminals get lighter sentences when a Liberal jurist hands down a sentence as compared to a Conservative jurist.

But that doesn't mean she received an unfair sentence.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions to justify defending the sentence.

The article indicates she was sentenced (at 15 mind you, 12 months seems way harsh for anything except a violent crime at 15) for what she was in court for that day. Filing a false report.

There's nothing wrong with comparing the sentences even if they were related to different crimes.

Person A is sentenced to prison for jaywalking.

Person B is sentenced to probation for rape, murder, etc.

Uh........*I don't care what the circumstances of either crime were* broken court system is apparent. And that's what we have in this country.

It looks like the prosecutors took a deal????

I don't understand. They didn't want to go to trial why exactly? Looks like they had a slamdunk case.

And how is a man who raped a 16 year old, 2 15 year olds, and a likely 13 year old, not going to prison? *For life.*

"I got 12 months for a falsified police report and he got probation for raping me and the others," said the now 20-year-old Ashley. "It's just ridiculous."

This is justice? Very distressing...!

Liberal judges do this kind of thing all the time

A prior corporate attorney and once Assistant Attorney General, appointed by Republican Governor Pataki. Yeah, sounds like a real "lefty". http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/012006TwoNominated.html

Cassandra Mullen will hear criminal cases in New York City. Her term will expire on Aug. 1, 2014.

Since 2003, Ms. Mullen has served as a senior associate corporation counsel for the City of Yonkers. From 2002 to 2003, she served as a senior trial attorney for Countrywide Insurance Company. From 2000 to 2002, she engaged in the private practice of law, concentrating in medical and dental malpractice and general liability matters. From 1997 to 1999, she served as an assistant attorney general for the New York State Attorney General's Office. From 1996 to 1997, she served as a senior trial attorney for American International Group, Inc. and from 1993 to 1996 as a trial attorney for Travelers Insurance Company. From 1991 to 1993, she served as an administrative law judge for the New York State Department of Labor.

The idea that a rape victim is at fault is right out of the Bible where a rape victim was subject to stoning.

That's actually a misinterpretation of Biblical law.

In the case of a woman who was raped out in the countryside, the assumption was that no matter how loud she screamed for help, no one was within range to hear her, much less save her. Hence, the rapist gets put to death.

In the case of a woman raped in a city/crowded village, the Bible makes the assumption that had she screamed for help, one or more people would have heard her cries and come to her rescue.

I suppose if the crime occurred out of earshot of any witnesses, the countryside rule would apply, but hairsplitting a bunch of obsolete rules gives me a headache :P

Anyway, the Biblical law gets really strange at this point. Neither of the two people get put to death. Instead, the man must pay restitution to the girl's father. Then he is forced to marry the woman without the possibility of divorcing her.

The only explanation for this bizarre twist is that 3,000 + years ago in the Near East, one way for two people to declare their intention to marry was simply to have intercourse and make their deed public. Although this path to marriage was frowned upon from day one and was ultimately outlawed by Rabbinic Judaism, it probably never died out entirely.

"In the case of a woman who was raped out in the countryside, the assumption was that no matter how loud she screamed for help, no one was within range to hear her, much less save her. Hence, the rapist gets put to death.

In the case of a woman raped in a city/crowded village, the Bible makes the assumption that had she screamed for help, one or more people would have heard her cries and come to her rescue.

I suppose if the crime occurred out of earshot of any witnesses, the countryside rule would apply, but hairsplitting a bunch of obsolete rules gives me a headache :P"

source?

"Then he is forced to marry the woman without the possibility of divorcing her."

you have a twisted logic machine, saying he's forced to marry her, when the obviously more important part here is that SHE is forced to marry her RAPIST.

See...if someone did that to me, and then got off pretty much scott free...I'd have to shoot him in the @!$%#ing face. I am SO not kidding about that.

If I were her father, I would go ape@!$%# and not only torture and kill the asshat that raped my daughter but also his family, and the cops that arrested her along with their families... and I would make the murder scenes so messy it would make anyone that saw them vomit. Oh, and don't forget the judge... I would make the face of that fake acid attack lady look like Venus compared to the judges face.

Back then, you would have been pissed at your daughter for losing the honor of the family.

Metal Guitarist

Jim-789449

Liberal judges do this kind of thing all the time, there was a rapist in New Mexico a few years ago who had been convicted 7 times rape and only got 4 years on the eight convection.

Jim, it is conservative judges who punish rape victims twice, first by letting the attacker get a slap on the wrist and then by denying the victim access to a rape kit and an abortion-at your expense.

Of course you should pay for the abortion-especially since you wish to neither feed nor educate the one you claim has a right to live. But, that poor child was raped? "Aw! Too bad! Let her give it up for adoption."

You righties and your hypocrisy are simply disgusting.

Please be so kind as to show me just where you got it that I was condoning this act, I made a simple statement that “liberal judges” let these people off all too often.

I DID NOT say the liberal left, the liberal dems, the liberal party, I said LIBERAL JUDGES, and made no mention of political affiliation what so ever.

I find it interesting how you have tried to turn this into a political issue rather than a judicial one, and as for someone being “disgusting” the shoe seems to fit you much better, you put it in your mouth very well.

I DID NOT say the liberal left, the liberal dems, the liberal party, I said LIBERAL JUDGES, and made no mention of political affiliation what so ever.

You of course are making the stupid mistake of defining the liberal judiciary as any judge that would let them off easy. You've gotten sucked into the whole "anything bad is liberal" bs that some pundits spew. In actuality, both extremes of the political spectrum favor heavy-handed government that is tough on criminals.

I signed the potation and sent the following:

“Our justice system has in the past suffered many blows from liberal judges that seem think “justice” only applies to the criminal, and the victim somehow “ask for what they got”.

Rape is a disgusting and sickening act, one that reeks of a sick mind and lawless being, my question for this judge is this, how would he have felt if it had been his daughter that was raped?

What would his response have been in that case? And how can he condone a “probation” sentence for a man who has committed this act more than once?

Perhaps I do not understand all the facts in the case, but the one thing I do understand is that the rape of a child by anyone is a crime against humanity, and a probation sentence for such a crime is an insult to humanity and a shameful act of the judiciary and court.

Once in this country the justice system had meaning, crime did not pay, that is no longer true, crime not only pays, it pays very well and the justice system has lost its meaning and its teeth.”

Liberals are not the problem. Conservative pro-"life" judges who blame 15-year-old girls are the problem.

The other problem is that if she kills her attacker, you righties throw the book at her anyway. You are sick and twisted with no sign of human decency in you. As for proof, any time I cite it, you dismiss the same. Since most of you righties enjoy playing the role of Pollyanna, I will allow you the priviledge of denying common knowledge.

If I were her father, I would go ape@!$%# and not only torture and kill the asshat that raped my daughter but also his family, and the cops that arrested her along with their families... and I would make the murder scenes so messy it would make anyone that saw them vomit.

And how much help would you be to your child in jail?

Seriously. Your child's rape is NOT about you or how you feel and the revenge you want. If you care about your child, you need to ask yourself: Can I do my job of as a parent in jail or can I do a better job as a parent if I try my hardest to be in my child's life so that I can help him/her feel more loved and secure enough to counteract the evil s/he experienced?

A woman's testimony was never equal to a man's. It took two women to contradict the testimony of a man.

In Islamic law definitely.

In ancient Biblical law, that was not the case.

And how much help would you be to your child in jail?

I wouldn't be in jail, that would be a one-way ticket on the Ben justice train... so yeah, I wouldn't be any help to my child dead. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just telling you what I would do. I'd let mom be the comfort while I went out and made sure it never happened by these people's hands again, and made sure everyone else thought twice before doing such things.

Like I said before, not sayin' it's right, just telling you what I would do. Your arguments are all quite valid, but they don't change what I would do if I were in her fathers' shoes.

Ben-

Not to be too personal or judgmental here , but you have kind of opened that door to a personal thing by saying what you would do, and why. I don't think you know what you would, or even could do , if you were in that position--not until it happens to you. I mean has this happened to your daughter? I hear this stuff all the time, and used to think that that is what I would do. When it happened to us. It was NOT at all what I thought it would be. So I think unless you have walked in those shoes, to be honest, you really do not know what you would do. I think to say that you do know does a disservice to those it has happened to, by implying that they wimped out.

I will run this down as fast as possible because there is a large gap between what I said and what some people are attributing to me. Sorry for the length.

Yada—I agree that there is a huge disparity in this case and many like it. But the disparity is not because the girl’s sentence was too severe. It may have been. But there is no evidence to suggest that her sentence was unusual or improper. Because she is a minor, her records are sealed and as a result all of the information the judge had to consider when she was sentenced are kept from us as well. Which is a good thing kid’s records should be off limits.

All I’m saying is that there are a whole lot of perfectly reasonable explanations for someone getting a year in the penn for filing a false police report. First of all it is a misdemeanor. This was an intentional act, not a paperwork mistake. Basically she swore to the police that someone had done something that they hadn’t. Sentencing guidelines usually recommend probation to 3 months for a first offense. No one has suggested that she was sentenced outside of standard guidelines. My guess is that this was a repeat offense. Given the information we do have this fits and is probable.

Also possible is that this was a simple paperwork error and her first offense and she just got a lousy deal. That seems like the kind of thing that would have come up if it were the case.

In ANY case, her sentence should not have been affected in ANY way by the sentence given to the rapist in this story. Because she was sentenced 3 years before the justice system became aware of the man’s crime.

Loretta—I will agree that the things you think I have said are far more entertaining to argue against than what I had actually said. But you really are putting words into my mouth that I didn’t say and do not believe.

Because she was a minor, her court records are sealed, everything in these articals about the crime she was convicted of and sentenced for does come from her. That is a fact and it does not mean that she is a liar. I never said she was. Only that there is no evidence that her sentence was improper. Ashley herself never said that 12 months was an improper sentence, only that compared to her sentence the probation that the pervert got was crazy. I agree. But please acknowledge that at the time she was convicted and sentenced for her crime, and for the entire time she spent serving her sentence, no-one except her knew she had been raped that day.

“Where did you get the idea that whatever she did should affect how he was sentenced?”

Please show me where I said this?

“Even if she never served a day, he deserved to serve serious prison time.”

Excuse me, I suggested that the death penalty would be an appropriate punishment for this guy. Sentencing should have started at 10 years per incident.

“Are you assuming he wouldn't know about the case he is commenting on? If so, are you alleging it's a conspiracy between him and her? If not, then why question her experience at all?”

Please show me where I said any of that. What I said was that at the time of her sentencing, no one was aware that she had been the victim of this crime. It is almost as if you decided that I was a monster in the first few sentences of my post and then ignored anything I wrote that might challenge that assessment (i.e. the entire post).

Carol – I stated explicitly that the rapist’s sentence was a miscarriage of justice. But because of the way this story is framed the discussion has trended towards presenting each of their sentences in the context of the other’s.

The rapist’s sentence isn’t ridiculously light because she got a more severe punishment for a non-violent crime. It is ridiculously light because he brutalized at least 4 girls and got to walk away. Likewise, just because some people get light sentences for worse crimes, it does not make the sentence the girl received unfair.

To judge her situation we would need to understand all of the factors that a judge considers when sentencing a person. We don’t have that information so it is inappropriate to suggest that her sentence did not fit her crime. It may not have been an appropriate sentence. It may have been. The Juvenile justice system makes an attempt at rehabilitation, the court may have decided she was incorrigible and felt a longer run under direct supervision would be beneficial. But the sentence given to her attacker, 3 years later by a different court, did not play any part in how she was sentenced or how fair her sentence was.

Loretta (again)—

“Now you tell me what you think this teen girl did that made her deserve a far worse sentence than any of these men -- including the one who raped her?”

You are equivocating. Yes, I believe that it is possible she deserves a punishment for her crime that is far worse than the sentence that these awful people received for theirs. But that does not mean I believe that her crime should be punished more severely than the crimes committed by the men in your example. It does mean that I believe the men in your example were horribly under-punished.

Please consider another example. This is a true story. My brother was sentenced to 6 months in county because he bought his friend a beer at a bar 4 days before the friend’s 21^st birthday. His sentence was at the very light end of the guidelines and there were some federal laws involved that required at least a minimum of jail time.

Would you consider this punishment fair? Most people I talk to consider this fair. 9 years after my brothers brush with the justice system, on his way home (we lived in Detroit at the time) a stray bullet from a drive-by shooting a few blocks away came through his passenger side window and killed his wife. The shooter was sentenced to 3 months jail (the average for manslaughter in Detroit at the time). Did my brother’s sentence for providing beer to an underage drinker become less fair?

Nicey—I wasn’t justifying her sentence. Only pointing out that the lack of information requires us to make an awful lot of assumptions in general and there are as many reasons that her sentence was appropriate as there are reasons suggesting she got a bum deal. But she never says that 12 months was an improper sentence for her crime.

In your analogy you choose the situation to support your personal view just a bit (person A is sentenced to Prison for jaywalking). Closer to the case at hand would be, “person A gets prison for check-kiting (a non-violent misdemeanor)” and “person B gets probation for murder”. It is obvious that person B has been under-punished. But how does that make person A’s sentence an over-punishment?

I don't think you know what you would, or even could do , if you were in that position--not until it happens to you. I mean has this happened to your daughter?

Well I don't even have a daughter, so no.

I think to say that you do know does a disservice to those it has happened to, by implying that they wimped out.

As others have pointed out, what I would do is the wimpy way.

Are all of you people REALLY this @!$%#ed up? AN attrocity like this happens and you try to attribute to one party or another? I am a died in the wool conservative. I am to the right of Limbaugh and I would never even think of attributing this scum to the left, just like I would not attribute abortion doctor killers to the right.

These kind of @!$%#s that pull this @!$%# are outside of the political spectrum and are just down right evil! This judge that did this was not a righty, he was not a lefty he was an @!$%#! There is simply no other way to put it!

Knock off the pigeon holing of these people and stop trying to fit them into the oter party in an attempt to villify them!

She is being prosecuted for lying on a police form and for putting other people at risks of being a victim of this man. Yes she should have been punished, jail 3 month, but the rapist should have been sentenced to at least 10 years, and then 15 years probation.

Makes me wonder if the rape even occurred at all now. she was a teen doing the no-no with an adult and knew he was dating other women.

Who knows, but she should have done the right thing in reporting the alleged rape from the get-go. Crying about it later makes you question this girls intentions and integrity.

Women do at time cry rape just to get even at their ex-boyfriends and husbands.

We need to figure out why men hate nearly everything female.

She is being prosecuted for lying on a police form and for putting other people at risks of being a victim of this man. Yes she should have been punished, jail 3 month, but the rapist should have been sentenced to at least 10 years, and then 15 years probation.

Makes me wonder if the rape even occurred at all now. she was a teen doing the no-no with an adult and knew he was dating other women.

Who knows, but she should have done the right thing in reporting the alleged rape from the get-go. Crying about it later makes you question this girls intentions and integrity.

Women do at time cry rape just to get even at their ex-boyfriends and husbands.

Seriously????? You didn't even comprehend the article. That is not what happened.

Anybody who'd dare put his---or her--- slimy paws on a woman in my family would want to go to the deepest, darkest part of prison and stay there. Forever. They'd be safer in the the worst maximum-security joint in America than out on the streets with me.

She is being prosecuted for lying on a police form and for putting other people at risks of being a victim of this man. Yes she should have been punished, jail 3 month, but the rapist should have been sentenced to at least 10 years, and then 15 years probation.

Makes me wonder if the rape even occurred at all now. she was a teen doing the no-no with an adult and knew he was dating other women.

Who knows, but she should have done the right thing in reporting the alleged rape from the get-go. Crying about it later makes you question this girls intentions and integrity.

Women do at time cry rape just to get even at their ex-boyfriends and husbands."

Wow. There are no words to describe all the wrong in that statement. No words.

Lorretta--

"Basically she swore to the police that someone had done something that they hadn’t."

Really? Show me the proof. She would not identify her assailant....therefore she accused someone of doing something they didn't....is not logical.

Yes really. The proof is that she was convicted in a court of law for doing so. A conviction she does not dispute.

I never said that her conviction for her crime had anything to do with identifying her assailant. That is pure fiction.

You're making it up as you go along and blaming the rape victim using the same "logic" that all blamers of rape victims use.

What did I blame her for? I never stated as fact anything that is not in evidence. I certainly never blamed her for being raped.

You are the only person focusing on her sentence.

Her sentence is in the headline of this post! What I'm saying is that focusing on her sentence distracts from the true injustice of this story. That this man got probation for multiple aggravated rape.

Please tell me what her "crime" was that deserves being punished worse than "these awful people" received. And provide proof, not the speculation you're using that she falsely accused someone of a crime they did not commit.

You never said it directly, but your argument implies it in every way. "We only have her word for it" implies she is lying.

Okay, you are attributing to me a quote I did not say. I enjoy constructive disagreements but this is dishonest. If you cannot defend your position without lies you may need to re-examine it. Do a [ctrl-f] and type in the phrase you claim I wrote. It appears only once in this thread and it was written by you.

Please tell me what her "crime" was that deserves being punished worse than "these awful people" received. And provide proof, not the speculation you're using that she falsely accused someone of a crime they did not commit.

Well all of the people in your example received 2 months of jail or less. The crime that she was proved guilty of to the satisfaction of her judge, is a misdemeanor with penalties above this falling within sentencing guidelines. So yes, as I said, it is certainly possible that a sentence of more than 2 months is an appropriate one for her crime.

Also, I never said she accused a person of a crime they did not commit. She was found guilty of filing a false police report. She was found guilty of telling the police something that she knew was not true. This isn't stuff I'm making up, the girl admits to it in the story. She filed a police report which concealed the identity of someone who had attacked her with a knife.

Why not focus on the travesty of justice? Why not focus on him, his actions and his sentence?

So you did not read my post? Any of them? Where I made very clear exactly those points?

Why focus on this one victim and the sentence she received if you are not trying to proclaim a rape victim is a liar and cannot be trusted to tell the truth?

I focused on it because it was a central element of this story. I never said she was a liar, and I never said that her crime had any bearing on the case of the rapist. It wouldn't have made a difference to me even if I believed she was a liar (which I do not) because the guilt of the rapist is not in question.

Bottom line: you're trying to make this all about her and trying to claim she is a liar.

No. I'm saying that focusing on the suggested injustice of her sentence distracts from the obvious and severe injustice of the rapists lenient sentence. But I realize that it doesn't matter what I actually say. You will mis-characterize it and fabricate more so that you can claim I said something that I didn't. I have to conclude that you are either willfully dishonest or posses a deficient degree of reading comprehension to engage in a constructive disagreement.

@littlechanges, #1.52,

Please don't generalize.

Real men don't do stuff like this---in fact, it doesn't occur to us. This sorry excuse used his position to exploit someone who couldn't fight back...tells you plenty about him right there.

I'd like to know why, if the prosecutors are male, they would hesitate to put this clown where he belongs though. He admitted what he did, guys---by what flawed logic don't you think you can convict his @$$.

Makes me wonder if the rape even occurred at all now. she was a teen doing the no-no with an adult and knew he was dating other women.

That is the very reason most victims do not report...someone will think they are lying to cover up the dirty deeds they were up to.

Who knows, but she should have done the right thing in reporting the alleged rape from the get-go. Crying about it later makes you question this girls intentions and integrity.

She should have reported it? Crying about it later? She was in shock at the time it happened and thought she wouldn't have been believed. It is likely she will be crying about it for the rest of her life...as is her right. Crying about a sexual attack does not make a person's intentions and integrity suspect. Ridiculing a victim does.

Women do at time cry rape just to get even at their ex-boyfriends and husbands.

Very few do this and it is one more reason victims do not come forward. For shame that people automatically assume that a rape victim is coming forward because she has been jilted.

BAJ:

real men in fact do rape people. Real men who are prosecutors, and friends with other real men, do in fact, let many other real men get away with it. Rape is a sadly very common violent crime. There are not just a sad few. There are sooo many rapes each year.(

United States's 70.3 reported Forced Rapes per 100,000 people, ranked the state 1st

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Really. I am telling you, you can look up the stats.There is a conviction rate of 6% for rape in the US(RAINN)

That tells me is can and does happen and that mostly men do it and mostly men fail to prosectute.

As for what you would do if this happened to you. Save it . Unless this has already happened to you and you killed the SOB, then you can't possibly know how it feels to have your child raped, and you can't possibly know what you would or even could do about it.

Yada—I agree that there is a huge disparity in this case and many like it. But the disparity is not because the girl's sentence was too severe. It may have been. But there is no evidence to suggest that her sentence was unusual or improper. Because she is a minor, her records are sealed and as a result all of the information the judge had to consider when she was sentenced are kept from us as well. Which is a good thing kid's records should be off limits.

benky, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that her sentence was unusual and improper. New York Penal Code is the evidence.

Article 240 Section 50 states, in part:

§ 240.50 Falsely reporting an incident in the third degree.

3.Gratuitously reports to a law enforcement officer or agency (a) the
alleged occurrence of an offense or incident which did not in fact
occur; or (b) an allegedly impending occurrence of an offense or
incident which in fact is not about to occur; or (c) false information
relating to an actual offense or incident or to the alleged implication
of some person therein;

Falsely reporting an incident in the third degree is a class A misdemeanor.

According to NY sentencing guidelines shown here,

The New York penal code sentencing guidelines call for no more than one year imprisonment and as little as no jail time at all for a Class A misdemeanor.

So, if she was convicted of a class A misdemeanor, she got the MAXIMUM sentence.

If, by some stretch of the imagination, she was charged and convicted of a class E felony as documented in part, in Article 240 Section 55, the sentencing guidelines still show that based on this, she could have been sentenced using these guidelines:

When a person, other than a second or persistent felony offender, is sentenced for a class D or class E felony, and the court, having regard to the nature and circumstances of the crime and to the history and character of the defendant, is of the opinion that a sentence of imprisonment is necessary but that it would be unduly harsh to impose an indeterminate or determinate sentence, the court may impose a definite sentence of imprisonment and fix a term of one year or less.

If you read the entire document, you would see that aside from the above, the minimum to maximum sentence depending on whether the person is a repeat offender, it is highly unlikely that this girl was charged with a felony.

So...my conclusion, based on the NY State Penal code and sentencing guidelines, is that this girl was horribly mistreated by the justice system. And, bear in mind the fact that AT her sentencing, she had JUST BEEN RAPED, so was very likely not in the frame of mind to protest it.

So no, benky...she did not protest the conviction or the sentencing. She was not in the mental or physical position to do so. Her lawyer and mother should have, however, but that is another story.

Sorry for having those last 3 paragraphs linked. I tried to fix it before my time ran out, but alas...I wasn't fast enough...

YaddaYadda, what do those same NY Penal Codes say about sentencing guidelines for rape - statutory as well?

Yes really. The proof is that she was convicted in a court of law for doing so. A conviction she does not dispute.

No. They said she was at court because she refused to identify her attacker (not that it was a false report).

The conviction proves that? What planet do you live on?

Clearly, convictions prove guilt (sarcasm). Again, you're making a bunch of assumptions without having much information.

Her sentence is in the headline of this post! What I'm saying is that focusing on her sentence distracts from the true injustice of this story. That this man got probation for multiple aggravated rape.

The failing of the court is from both sides.

And it is fair to look at disparity. How else would you measure what's fair and what isn't unless there's a basis to look at.

And our courts are full of it because they are owned by high priced lawyers, corporations, and corrupt politicians. They'd rather sentence a 3 time pot smoker to life in prison than charge a Corporate CEO who runs the economy aground.

You never said it directly, but your argument implies it in every way. "We only have her word for it" implies she is lying.

?

They sentenced a 15 year old to a year?

Again, the only thing that should carry that kind of weight for a minor is violence, assualt, possibly drug abuse if it was repeated or extreme.

Well all of the people in your example received 2 months of jail or less. The crime that she was proved guilty of to the satisfaction of her judge, is a misdemeanor with penalties above this falling within sentencing guidelines.

Have you actually looked what class misdemeanor this is, the state, and the sentencing guidelines to the #offense? (first time offense, second, etc).

Also, I never said she accused a person of a crime they did not commit. She was found guilty of filing a false police report.

Because she didn't identify her attacker. Therefor, they found the report to be "false"

She was found guilty of telling the police something that she knew was not true.

? The police?

Do you think Santa still exists? Really?

"The Cops said this so it must clearly mean the person is guilty"

She filed a police report which concealed the identity of someone who had attacked her with a knife.

Yet with all your assumptions you're unwilling to assume that she didn't identify her attacker out of fear?

And again, since when does concealing the identity of someone in a police report make it a false police report?

These kind of stories simply make me sick. I see no justification for incarcerating her.

YaddaYadda, what do those same NY Penal Codes say about sentencing guidelines for rape - statutory as well?

This is what I found:

Article 130 Section 25
Sexual misconduct = class A misdemeanor. Sentencing

The New York penal code sentencing guidelines call for no more than one year imprisonment and as little as no jail time at all for a Class A misdemeanor.

Article 130 Section 25
Rape in the third degree = Class E felony. Sentencing

When a person, other than a second or persistent felony offender, is sentenced for a class D or class E felony, and the court, having regard to the nature and circumstances of the crime and to the history and character of the defendant, is of the opinion that a sentence of imprisonment is necessary but that it would be unduly harsh to impose an indeterminate or determinate sentence, the court may impose a definite sentence of imprisonment and fix a term of one year or less.

or between 1 1/2 - 4 years.

Article 130 Section 30
Rape in the 2nd degree = Class D felony. See above for lightest sentence. Otherwise 2-7 years.

Article 130 Section 35
Rape in the first degree = Class B felony. Sentencing is 7-25 years, but for an "indeterminant sentence for a Class B felony"

—the minimum is not less than 1 year and not more than 1/3 of the maximum sentence imposed

Article 130 Section 40
Criminal sexual act in the third degree = Class D Felony. This would cover one type statutory rape - 21 or older with person no younger than 17.

Article 130 Section 45
Criminal sexual act in the third degree = Class E felony. This would cover statutory rape - 18 or older with person no younger than 15.

There are others, but I just went with the ones that would probably apply in this case. If you click on any of the links above, you can check out the rest of them.

Let me get this straight. NFL player Burress was given 2 years for shooting himself and a serial child rapist is looking at probation. Is there any wonder people can't stand the government?

There are others, but I just went with the ones that would probably apply in this case. If you click on any of the links above, you can check out the rest of them.

Thank you, YaddaYadda! You da woman!

I do try Shannoscubiedoo!

Hey, and did anybody notice...? I dug a few links deeper into the article (3 or so, I can't exactly remember) and found out that the sentencing judge was a woman.

Oh gawd!!!!!!!!

Hey, and did anybody notice...? I dug a few links deeper into the article (3 or so, I can't exactly remember) and found out that the sentencing judge was a woman.

I put up some info on her yesterday, at 1.29.

I put up some info on her yesterday, at 1.29.

Sorry, I must have missed that. Sometimes I lose the "green dot" alert and miss new posts because I have to leave before I'm done.

Look at Sharon Angle. She doesn't seem to like women too much either.

http://womensrights.change.org/blog/view/anti-choice_candidate_sharron_angle_attacks_maternity_leave

"How about maternity leave? I'm not going to have any more babies, but I sure get to pay for it on my insurance. Those are the kinds of things we want to get rid of."

Carol,

Look at Sharon Angle. She doesn't seem to like women too much either.

That's because the jury is deadlocked on whether or not she IS a woman.

Yadda-- What you have provided is evidence that under certain assumptions her sentence could have been unusually severe. I have already agreed with this point. I made this point from the very beginning. We are in agreement on this issue.

Those assumptions are that this was a first offense and that there was no pattern of behavior and that there were no extenuating circumstances. Under some or all of those assumptions her sentence would be either severe or even unusually severe. Maybe even improper, though judges work outside of guidelines all the time.

But the same lack of evidence that requires we make assumptions that this was a first offense, no pattern, no extenuating circumstances (the conditions in which this would be an improper sentence) must also cause us to consider the possibility that there were those conditions and that the sentence was appropriate.

Lorretta--

So her saying that she was convicted because she would not identify her assailant is "pure fiction"? But you're not calling her a liar?

Now you are parsing. I said that her sentence did not consider whether or not she identified her assailant (meaning her rapist). This was in response to you stating that I had said this. The part I was calling "pure fiction" was your statement about what I had said.

I later, and in another context, pointed out that her crime was in protecting the identity of a knife attacker. She may have had legitimate reasons for doing so but it is still a serious crime to protect the identity of a felon even if the victim is yourself. Now you have taken what I wrote about her behavior in regards to the attacker she filed the police report about and applying it to statements made about the rapist and claiming that it is contradictory.

Finally:

When you comment on something you claim they have said and you put those words in quotation marks you are claiming that the person said those exact words. You claim I accuse her of lying in regards to the rape because, as you attribute to me, "we only have her word for it". I did not type those words in this context or any other.

Maybe you interpreted what I wrote as that, but you didn't claim "Benky wrote some things which I take to mean ...", you wrote "Benky said ..." (paraphrased). The difference between these two actions is so severe that the latter of the two can get you expelled from college.

Imagine if I were to write: And the Loretta says, "Liars and criminals are never victims of rape. Therefore, since we know this girl is the victim of a rape it is illogical to claim that she may have committed a crime prior to her attack".

Maternity leave is not paid for by insurance. How can anyone vote for someone so ignorant?

I seeded an article on that a few days ago and came to the conclusion, given the context wherein she was complaining about having to pay for insurance coverage for a myriad of childhood illness diagnoses falling under the "autism" (her air quotes) spectrum, that she actually meant to refer to maternity coverage rather than maternity leave. Both instances apparently chapped her hide because she's "not having any more babies" herself. Apparently, she not only doesn't understand the proper terminology, she doesn't understand the basic concept of the group health insurance most of us have - including herself - that's meant to spread the cost among the members by spreading the risk to the insurer among the entire group it covers.

None of which is meant to contradict your original question of how anyone could justify voting for someone so ignorant, nor go against lumping her into the women-who-hate-women category. Because, as I pointed out on the seed, she could very well have complained about not wanting to pay for male-only oriented medical coverage like prostate exams or Viagra instead since she herself doesn't have a prostate or a penis.

Lorretta--

You still have shown me the law that says she was even required to report the crime. If she isn't required to report the crime, she also isn't required to reveal the criminal

I never said she got in trouble or should get in trouble for not reporting a crime. But it is a Class A misdemeanor (the most severe misdemeanor)to give untrue information on a police report (http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0210.45_210.45.html).

Why not admit that yes, you did say she was a liar. You have danced all around it, tried parsing things to mean something different

Here's a thought I would like you to consider for just a moment. Maybe I chose words that meant something other than "she's a liar" because I was trying to communicate a message other than "she's a liar". You see, people having an honest and frank discussion assume that their words will be taken at face value, so they choose words which express their actual thoughts.

Perhaps you could have a discussion about what my words actually say instead of how you choose to interpret them. Because at this point, I can repeat something nearly verbatim that the girl in this story said herself and you will tell me I am blaming the victim.

You wouldn't like it if I nominated myself as the true authority on what you really mean. Like when you say "Many women and children do not report the felons who have raped them", perhaps what you are really saying is that you have raped many women and children and never been reported. Don't bother pointing out that you didn't write any such thing and don't bother denying it. You don't get to decide what you meant anymore. Does this work out for you?

Both instances apparently chapped her hide because she's "not having any more babies" herself. Apparently, she not only doesn't understand the proper terminology, she doesn't understand the basic concept of the group health insurance most of us have - including herself - that's meant to spread the cost among the members by spreading the risk to the insurer among the entire group it covers.

Well, she's even more stupid, because there are insurance policies out there that specifically omit maternity coverage for people who...well...aren't going to have babies. Maybe she hasn't figured that one out yet.

benky, you STILL do not get it, do you? This entire article is about the disparity between the crimes and corresponding sentences. It is not about whether or not the girl should have been convicted. We don't know the answer to that. It IS about, however, how someone with a Class A misdemeanor gets 12 months and a rapist gets probation. Why can't you understand that? You are fixated on whether a 15 year old's sentence was appropriate.

But it is a Class A misdemeanor (the most severe misdemeanor)to give untrue information on a police report

She didn't give untrue information. She refused to give information along with it.

Again, what makes her report false?

IMO, even the charge is wrong. It's not filing a false police report. It was (in all liklihood) a true report. The cops simply are not satisfied without knowing the assailent. That's fine.

But can they gaurantee protection? *Apparently not since they can't even prevent her from getting raped in a federal building.*

That only reinforces that her view of not giving them information was *the correct (from her view)* stance.

how someone with a Class A misdemeanor gets 12 months and a rapist gets probation. Why can't you understand that? You are fixated on whether a 15 year old's sentence was appropriate.

I'm not even sure I agree with that being a Class A misdemeanor. Really? And the circumstance of the report...it's not a *false* report, it was an *incomplete* report.

Looking thru a list of Class A misdemeanors, they equate this with violent assualt, criminal posession of a weapon, endangering child welfare, etc, etc.

However, *why wasn't she given a lesser sentence as a 15-year old minor?* I wasn't even aware you could be sentenced for 1-year as a 15-year old minor?

Here in Texas, you can't even go to jail for a DUI as a minor. *It's a class C Misdemeanor*

Also looking thru a list of Class A misdemeanors, it's obvious our courts are *F%^$ed*

• Graffiti
• False advertising (Hold up, let's arrest every single CEO of every major multinational, because they all commit this crime)
• Anything falsely done to a mortgage...HAHAHAHAAHAHA. Ok, like Banks foreclosing homes that are paid for? I'm pretty sure no one at BOA is spending 1-year in jail for illegally entering someones house and stealing their stuff.
• Making a false statement of credit terms...again LOLOLOLOL.
• Posession of a gambling device

So.....An *incomplete* police report is more offensive than drunk driving. Well ladida.

I'm not even sure I agree with that being a Class A misdemeanor. Really?

Yep. According the the NY State penal code, that's what I suspect she was charged with. Class A misdemeanors include filing a false report. Nothing I read said anything about filing an incomplete report, however. As benky stated, her juvenile records are sealed so we can't know for certain what, exactly, she was really charged with. But, like I said, Class A misdemeanor fits.

However, *why wasn't she given a lesser sentence as a 15-year old minor?*

Good question and one that no one has been able to answer so far.

Lorretta--- You keep repeating your lies and distortions all you like. But I have never said that the information the girl gave was untrue or that she is untrustworthy and I never said that her account of the rape she was a victim should be questioned at all.

I never said she was lieing about the crime she was convicted of.

As for her conviction for filing a false police report you say:

How is not naming a person a lie?

It is not a lie to not name someone. But when you file a police report saying that you do not know who attacked you, when in actuality you do know that person, and then you sign that report under a paragraph of text explaining that you by your signature you swear that the information you have written is true, for whatever reason you do it, it is still a crime. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that demonstrates a troublesome disregard for the truth.

Yadda--

benky, you STILL do not get it, do you? This entire article is about the disparity between the crimes and corresponding sentences

The disparity of the sentencing is what I am focusing on. Because of the way this story is presented, though, some of that disparity is being attributed to the perception that her sentence was unusually sever. I'm saying that based on everything we know (namely that the girl did not dispute the appropriateness of it), it is likely that her sentence was a normal one.

The sentence the man got was horribly inappropriate. My point is that the matter of the girls sentence is a distraction because it had no affect on his. Lot's of people get jail time for things lighter than rape, their sentences aren't necesarily wrong.

But the rapist in this story's is. That's my point

their sentences aren't necesarily wrong.

From what has been presented about the situation, filing a police report as a minor of 15 years of age that was (false because the attacker wasn't named) doesn't deserve a year in prison. That is wrong.

Seriously, the reason filing a false police report is wrong is it is potentially a form of attack on another person. Which wasn't what she was doing (she omitted the name...so who is she trying to attack with it?)

But can they gaurantee protection? *Apparently not since they can't even prevent her from getting raped in a federal building.*

This about says all we need to know about rape in the US. She wasn't the first and won't be the last. Not only that I would bet the farm that there were other rapists too in that group or at least people who knew about it long before the dude was caught and did NOTHING. And I am not talking about victms . I am talking about this man's friends and co workers.

• "I would bet the farm that there were other rapists too in that group or at least people who knew about it long before the dude was caught and did NOTHING. And ... I am talking about this man's friends and co workers."

First the Church does it, now the State. They're violating the Separation Clause as well as women & children.

bunch of sickos out there alright.

Nicey--Now that is a fair point. And a well reasoned reply.

I would add, that a reason it is a crime to file a false police report (in addition to the one you mentioned) is that giving false information to police makes it more difficult for them to remove a dangerous person from their community. A person who would attack this 15 year old with a knife is (in addition to having committed that particular crime) the kind of person likely to attack other people with a knife and the kind of person likely to have attacked other people with a knife. That is why, when called to give information on what we know about a crime that has been committed, we have a legal and civic duty to give accurate information. Unless doing so would also give evidence of your own criminal activity. In that case the court can give immunity for any criminal activity your information would expose, and then re-establish your legal responsibility to give it.

In this particular case there are so many possibilities concerning the girl's situation that would make a sentence of 1 year appropriate, that it is premature to consider it as a part of the injustice which certainly exists in the light sentence the man in this story received. And by "possibilities" I don't mean far fetched reaches of the imagination. I mean, was this a second or third offense? Was an innocent person arrested who wouldn't have been if she had given all of the information she knew about the attacker? That last pushes her crime up to a felony. As a juvenile, was the long sentence part of a counseling and treatment program? Without this information we don't really know whether her sentence was fair or unfair. If the girl herself had said that her sentence was inappropriate for her crime, or had appealed the sentence, then in the absence of information I would support the girl's assertion that she got a bum deal. But that's not the case.

So why do I bring it up and focus on why her sentence may have been legitimate? Because the issue of her sentence distorts the perception of the rapist's. In this thread and others are comments to the effect of, "I can't believe she got 12 months for that when he only got probation for 3-4 counts of rape! That's so unfair". The implication is that her sentence is unfair because people who commit rape get much lighter ones. This is a logical fallacy, but it follows naturally when the issue of her sentence is involved.

Consider if the matter of her sentence had been muted altogether from the story or reserved for a backstory paragraph after the "fold". Would people be less outraged by the sentence this guy got? I don't think so. But considering his sentence on its own merit would frame the outrage as "I can't believe he received such a light sentence for such a horrible crime". Which is IMO a much more productive way to channel our outrage.

If part of the atrocity of this story really is the sentence the girl received, then how light must her sentence have been in order for his to seem fair by comparison?

This is the part where I ramble a little but I will try to keep it interesting. There are cases where the sentences of two people relative to each other truly do reflect a collective injustice. They are cases where the crimes are co-related. A man punches me and I hit him back, yet I get a year in jail and he gets probation. All things being equal, there is a travesty that the same crime of brawling was not punished the same for each of us. Or in Saudi Arabia a woman was sentenced to a year in prison plus 100 lashes for adultery after she was gang-raped. The men who raped her received prison time. Because she appealed the verdict the judge doubled her sentence to 200 lashes. The injustice here is both that the men got very low sentences for aggravated rape as well as that the woman got a crazy large sentence for being raped (as well as some other sharia violations like being in a car with a man). The comparison of one sentence to the other in this case is natural because they are both obviously unfair (one for being too lenient the other for being too severe).

Consider if the matter of her sentence had been muted altogether from the story or reserved for a backstory paragraph after the "fold". Would people be less outraged by the sentence this guy got? I don't think so.

Then your thinking is incorrect. People would still be just as outraged and the fact that you don't think they would be is, imo, mind boggling. And why are you bringing up something that happened in Saudia Arabia under Sharia law? What comparison are you trying to make?

littlechanges

We need to figure out why men hate nearly everything female.

We need to find out why a lot of women bytch, complain, and file bogus charges on men that don't want anything to do with them.

PSYCHOTIC!

littlechanges,

We need to figure out why MEN hate nearly everything female.

I think we need to figure out why YOU and perhaps others generalize. Perhaps you should have said SOME MEN and not allude to ALL MEN as you did. Just a thought!

There is no such thing as complete recovery

I have several issues with this. First: have I not completely recovered? I feel perfectly whole. Why would you tell me that this is not possible? I love myself, my life, my family, my partner AND my sexuality. The things that happened to me didn't happen because of who *I* am or because there was/is something inherently wrong with or about me, they happened because of the inherent wrongness within someone else. I refuse to take on their damage and make it my own in perpetuity.

Second: I don't mean to diminish the feelings of ANY survivor or the seriousness of any sex crime, but I believe that saying that we can NEVER fully recover may not only lessen our chances of actually doing so but may give a greater sense of power to the perpetrators of sexual violence by leading them to believe that one act on their part has the ability to negatively impact another's life forever.

How many times have you heard or said yourself that rape is not an act of sex but an act of violence or power? When someone has been physically violated, they feel that part or even ALL of their own power has been taken from them. Why exacerbate that feeling by confirming their worst fear: that they will never fully recover it? And why add to the rapist's sense of victory by declaring that it's permanent?

Why not instead send a message to both the survivors AND perpetrators of sexual violence by telling survivors that they can recover? Why not say: "Someone else's crime against you does not define who you were when it happened, who you are now or who you can be for the rest of your life, it defines the perpetrator. Your value as a human is not diminished by the inhumane act perpetrated against you, theirs is."

I feel perfectly whole.

I love myself, my life, my family, my partner AND my sexuality.

Your value as a human is not diminished by the inhumane act perpetrated against you, theirs is."

who haven't been victims of violence or rape don't have what you do.

shanno:

As a rape survivor myself, I can say that I got over it. But saying that does not mean that the recovery is ever really complete. I say this as the mother of a rape survivor. While I agree that "never" is a word I probably wouldn't choose, that the sentiment it conveys is probably correct. Rape usually does not just effect the person who was raped. It effects their families and friends and communities as well . While you have obviously moved on with your life, and congratulations on that, there may well be someone within your circle who was hurt by your rape who has never really recovered. I know I recovered from my own rape, and my daughter thinks that she has recovered from hers, that I will probably never lose the little voice in my head, no matter how wrong it may or may not be, that I failed my daughter. I would never say that to her, as she feels that she has moved on. but when people talk about rape around her, I see how she unconsciously separates herself from the fact that this happened to her. Now her rape was particularly brutal, so that is a difference and it was also involving multiple rapists. But I know I am not the same person I was before this happened and can say with a good degree of certainty that I never will be again,

I sm not blaming the survivor here, or saying that this deed done to them forever is the only defining factor, but I am saying that once it happens its scope is very broad, and that it changes people involved.

Loretta: re 1.100, touche and brava.

Her choices should belong to her alone. Her innocence belongs to her alone. Only she has the right to make a choice about her innocence and whether or not she wants to shed it.

I agree with this, completely. What to do and how a person reacts is their right alone. But that doesn't stop the impact on other people who are close to the raped person.So I would add that when a family member is raped, it really takes a toll on the rest of the family. Parents, older siblings, friends, grandparents, aunts and uncles. Like it or not those relationships are not the same anymore either. People blame themselves, people wonder what really happened, why was this allowed to happen. It can cause a crisis in faith for some, it can cause rage and revenge obsession (as we have seen clearly by all the what I would do if I were her father, and why didn't the father, and where was the father) So rape is an assault that keeps on giving well beyond the rape itself.

I think the natural reaction, after dealing with your child medically and counseling wise, is to want to really hurt the rapist. But this just illustrates how far beyond the raped person that the reach of rape goes. People snap and lose it and commit crimes in retaliation. or have breakdowns, or have to move away, or lose their jobs trying to get justice for their child. It goes way past the raped. I can tell you that when I was raped and got pregnant at a young age it impacted my family way more than it did me--yes, I went on to have a life--but i was not the same person ever again, and that was in the 60s when sex was considered cool.

I think I would also fall into the latter half of that equation. I know that when our daughter was raped we needed for her to be believed. The anger I feel at the DA telling us that while he believed her he knew that without more evidence that grand jury wouldn't and he was therefore putting the case as suspended for lack of evidence, which the paper reported as closed for lack of evidence and the town took as, well she must have been lying, as they also twisted witness testimony from I didn't see anything because I came in right after the fact , into the witness supporting the claim of the rapists that they weren't doing anything, once again calling her a liar, was unreal. It nearly killed our marriage, our family and extended family. We did have to move out of town because of the repercussions. Yes she is ok now. But nothing is the same as before. And I grieve for that and for the lack help that we had expected to get for her from the community, I grieve for their fear. Because it seems now as if their fear, that forced them to not allow themselves to support or believe her came from a terrible insecurity about how control . She must have done something that their daughters would never do to have this happen to her--and conversely their daughters were safe, because they would never do that thing--so they could control (zt least in their own minds) the safety from rape for their daughters--delusional and dangerous.Not to mention Cruel.

I still have not come to the point where I can be very rational,no rational is the wrong word, I guess I can't be neutral or detached on the subject of rape of a child.

Let me define what I believe would be a complete recovery: being exactly the same person you were the moment before the rapist grabbed you..

We are never the same person we were as before any event in our lives. My point was that the survivors of sexual assault deserve better than being told that they will "never recover" from what happened. They deserve something like: "You may feel broken right now, but you are not permanently broken."

Innocence never dies a natural death. It is always murdered. The rapist murders that innocent portion of his victim. Always and forever.

How does making a declaration like this help someone who has experienced a sex crime recover? How does it keep the perpetrator from feeling even more powerful?

That was my main point, which I don't have time to explore right now because I have kids to feed.

Back later.

shannoscubie: I think we are talking at cross purposes here, I think we all want people to see that they can go ahead with their lives and become stronger even in some cases from bad experiences. I don't think that admitting that we have had something taken from us is the same as giving the perp props.

I, at least am talking about trying to accept that something bad happened and as (not only the rape) but as in this case, justice was not won, nor is it ever likely to be won. I think my daughter thinks it is all fine, because she really has not accepted the totality of what happened and in her case there is a good possibility due to cognitive impairment that she never will. I do see lingering things in her as I have said that show me that she is NOT the same person she was before.

This does not mean by any stretch of the imagination the we don't support her in her decision to move on, get past it, not think about it, whatever--it is her choice. I think what I am saying is that rape is a crime based on the complicity of our culture to accept it. Without that, it would still happen but maybe the outcome would be different and maybe we would put more emphasis on men learning to control themselves around women and less on women having to learn self-defense(which may or may not help her deflect a rapist) I just think we are concentrating on it from a distorted cultural perspective.

Yadda-- Crack open the remedial English text book please--

Then your thinking is incorrect. People would still be just as outraged and the fact that you don't think they would be is, imo, mind bogglin

I'm sorry for the jab, but this is really getting out of hand. You react to a sentence I wrote where I say explicitly that the outrage against this man's sentence would have been the same even if her crime and punishment were not mentioned. And then you criticize me for saying the opposite.

I bring up the case from Saudi Arabia as a real life example where an injustice stems from how two specific sentences are related to each other. I could mention the case where a 16 year old girl and a 16 year old boy are caught having a consensual sexual relationship but the girl got charged and is now on a registry for 25 years and the boy gets off scott free.

But to say that because her attacker received such a light sentence, the sentence she received years earlier for an unrelated crime not involving the rapist was unfair, is just nonsense. That would mean that every 12 month sentence given for her crime, under equal circumstances, is unjust. The reality is, there is no sentence that Ashley could have received which would have made the one given to this rapist fair. Because the problem is not her sentence, but his.

Lorretta--Bingo

It is entirely fair to compare to the two sentences because of the disparity of the harm done. Her "crime" did not create harm even close to the harm his crimes (let's remember: they were multiple) did.

It is fair to compare the punishments that we expect for each of these two crimes. The outrage of this case is that this man received basically nothing for a crime we expect to be punished most severely.

You agreed that if her story had been left out, the outrage would still be present. Now consider if the rape element had been left out.

If the headline said: "Troubled teen receives 12 months for filing a false police report!", what would the reaction be? This sentence is handed down literally thousands of times a year. I would not hold my breath waiting for O'Reilly to comment on it.

Where the true injustice lies, and I think you agree with me here, is that there are not minimum mandatory sentences for rape. Especially aggravated rape where a lot of the grey areas people bring up do not exist.

Also the actual recommended sentences for child sexual abuse are ridiculously light. Petty theft is routinely punished more severely than child-rape. My neighbor's 17 yr old son is on a predator registry because when he was 17 he was having a fling with a 16 year old girlfriend (they are still together). But violent rape and horrible cases of child exploitation are given notoriously light punishments fairly often, too often.

The crime which most closely resembles the personal devastation of an aggravated rape, would be something like "aggravated assault with intent to maim". But sentencing guidelines for the rape are much lighter. This story takes the injustice of the ridiculous sentencing guidelines and compounds them by giving this guy a punishment far below even these.

As I mentioned, it's a cultural sickness. Like most of them it probably has its roots in something productive, but I can't think of what that might be.

"... male claims for sexual freedom and protection from criminal conviction without fair warning." What? What part of "assault a woman and you'll do time" isn't fair warning? Now of course if we only bothered to make the "do time" part real. Penal law has penile basis. As a man, I find my fellows' continued insensitivity to women and children repugnant.

I'm sorry for the jab, but this is really getting out of hand. You react to a sentence I wrote where I say explicitly that the outrage against this man's sentence would have been the same even if her crime and punishment were not mentioned. And then you criticize me for saying the opposite.

benky, you're right. my bad. and look, just because you're pissed doesn't mean you get to insult. i didn't insult you, and i expect you not to do the same to me.

I bring up the case from Saudi Arabia as a real life example where an injustice stems from how two specific sentences are related to each other.

Yes, but you're talking about comparing sentences between a country that uses Sharia law as their guideline, and one that does not. I get what you're trying to do with this example, but it still doesn't work for me.

I could mention the case where a 16 year old girl and a 16 year old boy are caught having a consensual sexual relationship but the girl got charged and is now on a registry for 25 years and the boy gets off scott free.

You should have, because it's a better example. Still not a good one, but a better one.

But to say that because her attacker received such a light sentence, the sentence she received years earlier for an unrelated crime not involving the rapist was unfair, is just nonsense.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that #1) even if the rape portion of the story hadn't been mentioned, I would still think that 12 months is a ridiculous sentence based on the information in the story. Because NOTHING in the NY state penal code says that choosing not to name a person is a crime. For all we know, her parents could have made her file the police report and she didn't want to. So she decided not to name the person who assaulted her. Again, we have no idea so I base my opinion on the current information.

#2) you're proposed headline

"Troubled teen receives 12 months for filing a false police report!",

would have been misleading because nothing in the story suggests that she was, in any way, a "troubled teen" prior to "filing a false police report". Just mho.

I'm also saying that #3) the sentence the rapist got was a travesty of justice. You and I are on the same page here.

The entire discussion, as many of us have pointed out is the DISPARITY between the sentences. That's it, that's all. It happens every single day across the country. Not just for rape, but for murder, child abuse, you name it. And really, that's it in a nutshell. At least it is for me.

Seems more like it's just you and your bitterness toward men that don't take bs from bytchi women.

More proof of our "clear understanding" of your attitude toward women.

We need to figure out why men hate nearly everything female.

...

We need to find out why a lot of women bytch, complain, and file bogus charges on men that don't want anything to do with them.

...

Guess that defines you well. Now we all have a clear understanding that will influence how we view every post you make.

...

Seems more like it's just you and your bitterness toward men that don't take bs from bytchi women.

..

More proof of our "clear understanding" of your attitude toward women.

As far as I'm concerned, this whole conversation doesn't do anything but wind up and justify holding onto destructive sexist attitudes.

Yadda-- I got ya about the disparity of the sentence. But disparity implies a connection between the two. That one is unfair because of the other.

Loreena-- The motivation to destroy the attacker of one's child does not always come from a patriarchal view of women as property. Doubt anyone who has said they would kill the attacker of their daughter in a chase like this would not say the same thing if the victim was their son.

I have a son and a daughter, and faced with a situation like this, where the attacker basically walks, for either of my children, I would not take vigilante justice off the table. There is a matter of justice to consider.

You are also discounting the mind-state of a parental vigalante. I have no doubt that the odds of getting cause are negligible. Perhaps I would wait 3 or 4 years and let the list of people willing to kill the scumbag build. Perhaps I would use poison, or subterfuge. Maybe a well targeted craigslist ad.

But even in the worst outcome, I get caught, my little boy or little girl would live out knowing that someone cared enough to make a sacrifice for them instead of a sacrifice out of the,.

Yadda-- I got ya about the disparity of the sentence. But disparity implies a connection between the two. That one is unfair because of the other.

Fair enough. I can see why you would come to that conclusion.

That is why, when called to give information on what we know about a crime that has been committed, we have a legal and civic duty to give accurate information.

While very true, we don't live in a vacuum.

On the rape sentencing...

I can't believe (even for a first time rape) the sentencing. For one thing, it was statutory rape (usually a heavier sentence), for another, he's over 21 (additional charge), for another he was more than 10 years older than the victime (that's another charge in most states).

I was thinking the minimum sentence for this kind of thing is 15-20 years.

Lorretta-- What would it do to you to live out your days knowing that the most important and powerful people around you (police, judges, parents, friends) knew this had happened to you and the best they could come up with was giving the guy probation and letting him go.

What must that do to a persons sense of self worth to be harmed so horribly and have nobody, not those whose job it is to protect you, not even your own family stand up and punish the person who did it.

Also, there is a spillover effect. When people believe that they can commit this crime with impunity they will attempt it more often. It's like the honeybee. Its stinger is not for self protection or even the protection of his hive (since stinging will drop the hive worker population), but all future hives are safer because the punishment for messing with it is certain.

I would love it if we had a justice system that effectively prosecuted and punished criminals. I think usually it does. And where it falls short I am generally inclined to let the system straighten itself out from the inside. But a case like this is a gross abrogation of justice. In the absence of official justice, do we settle for none at all?

I think that the tendency towards vigilante sentiment in cases like this goes beyond the patriarchal "must punish for harming my property" rationality that the feminist lens too quickly ascribes. It exists. But it's not the only rationale for this kind of rhetoric. I don't own my daughter, or my son, but I 'own' the responsibility of raising them and teaching them about right and wrong.

And as an afterthought... You have to find a jury to convict. When the case is this blatent, I doubt you could find a prosecutor willing to ruin his record bringing a father to court for shooting this guy.

The screwed up idea of revenge is patriarchal in the extreme.

Loretta, not everything is patriarchal. Some of it is just being human.

I often feel like I would like revenge, but know it won't help. It will just make things worse. Criminal charges for murder don't go away, because, well, "he had a point". he law is the law when it comes to that. I am not even a man, but I wanted to kill the people involved in the rape and failure of justice when I was involved in it.

The point is that it doesn't work. Where do you stop. Who is responsible for the damage to the victim. The rapist, the people who covered it up--they are usually top on my list--those who persecuted the victim as a liar and made her already bad predicament worse? Where does the need for revenge stop.

The thing is that it doesn't stop for the parent of a rape victim until they understand that they are not the ones who failed their kid. It was the rapist and the system. Keep fighting the system, but don't use your own ego driven rage and say it is to give your daughter justice. All it is really doing is making you feel better about the helplessness involved when your child is raped. It is very hard to forgive yourself because you couldn't protect your child--iy is a hard thing to live with.

Other people make it worse by blaming you or calling you a wimp out of their own fear about what if it happened to their kid?. Other people do and will continue to blame you for being a bad parent. They do this so they don't have to deal with the fear that it could--and it really could --happen to anyone,including their kid. Blaming you for letting it happen, or for not taking Revenge is how they cope with their OWN fear. They would rather blame you for letting your kid watch the wrong tv, go to the wrong event, having the wrong friends, wearing the wrong clothes--all things that they thing "Cause" rape or "invite" rape--in other words think that they can control. People get raped in Churches, in slums, in the best neighborhoods, in every kind of clothing from Burka to Bikini, to handcuffs and jail clothes. There IS no way to totally stop it. Parents of rape victims, the best thing you can do to avenge you kid is to stand by them , for give yourself, honor the victims requests, and keep fighting for a better system. Assuaging your own guilt and ego-won't help anyone.

Revenge , It really isn't about helping the victim--it is what people do in instead of dealing with what happened. It is about deep shame and blame, and ultimately the inability to forgive themselves.

You bet I'll sign that petition! The girl's first exposure to the justice system and this is how she's treated? And we expect our youth to have faith in that system? What a joke.

Signed and sent.

Another WTF moment brought to you by the US Justice system....

Done. Thanks for seeding this, Loretta!

I signed it, too.

I signed it too.

Me too.

Signed it. Thank you for the opportunity to do so Loretta.

I signed, but what was up with the PayPal thing?

The ridiculousness of this is stunning--had an author written a short story with this in it, it would be sent back for a re-write. Stunning--unjust--both cases. One can understand why the girl might have lied (fear) BUT there's no excuse for the court-house rapist.

Signed and sent.

Loretta, Once you click to sign, the next screen it takes you to is to give a donation. It does say at the top of it that your signature has been added so at least it does let you know payment isn't required to add your name to the petition.

This case is unbelievable!!!

Thanks for the fyi, Loretta. And I signed the petition too!

Signed. I hope that there are no other victims of this monster, but if there are, I hope they come forward SOON so that there is a second indictment. I cannot believe the DA and the Judge would make the same mistake on sentencing twice. (BUT: There is something to be said for taking a plea deal when there is no physical evidence: better to have the guy convicted than to have him walk.)

I signed the petition and added this comment: "Tony Simmons deserved to receive a tougher sentence for his egregious crime. I would also point out that the Manhattan Family Court should have better security. It is shocking that a rape was committed in a building which is purportedly for the purpose of carrying out justice."

signed and sent.

great--am doing it right now. I hope it has some impact or the SOB will just do it again, and may well try and hunt down and finish off his victim.

Signed with the following comments:

Prior to sentencing a confirmed rapist of teen-aged children, you should talk with survivors of this type of terrible and violent crime. You should also talk with the victims family to learn the pain this crime has on all involved.

Though I do not personally know these victims, we live within a society of laws. I have expectations of the appropriate application of our laws. A penalty of probation is not sufficient for the hurt this monster did to so many people.

Somedays, Loretta, there are no words...

Which is why I always say all rapists, from the first offense, ought to get chemically castrated. That way you never ever see a "repeat offender" in the category.

As for what that "juvenile counselor" did to the victims--same treatment for the same offense is what I say. What an outrage!!

Petition signed, along with a comment left for the judge.

I demand a review and a appropriate action by this lack of fair injustice...

Of course I signed, this is an outrage... sigh

Thanks Loretta.

all rapists, from the first offense, ought to get chemically castrated

I prefer a dull rusty knife.

Reading this story has made me nauseated. Why is this man still alive??

signed and sent!

Not only signed, but forwarded to everyone on my mailing list. Thanks for posting the link, Loretta.

I signed too!!

I've signed -- thanks for posting this, Loretta.

Signed Loretta, gladly and grimly. That SOB should be eunuchized and tossed down an oubliette.

As for the question "Why do some people need to try to cast doubt on a rape victim? Isn't it time we stop pretending that all rape victims are liars? Victims of other crimes are not assailed like this. Rape victims deserve to be treated the same." Gynephobia combined with the notions mentioned re permanent sperm and inheritance, and the idea that a woman was inherently promiscuous and incapable of behaving when out of sight of whatever male claimed dominance over her.

This satan has done his work. The petition has been signed-with a comment, declaring that if he is stupid enough to let this go, he will have no right to punish these girls if they decide to take the law into their own hands.

Signed and sent. Loretta, thanks for the seed!

I just now signed it. Thank you very much, Loretta!

Signed with comment, Loretta.

Done!

ditto