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California libertarian and Tea Party darling Jules Manson is caught calling for the assassination of President Barack Obama and his children. On Sunday, many Facebook users were greeted by the shocking spectacle of a California libertarian and Ron Paul supporter by the name of Jules Manson advocating for the assassination of President Barack Obama. Manson, a failed politician, recently ran for and lost a seat on the City of Carson’s City Council last March. The following is the text of Manson’s racist, treasonous, deplorable post:
“Assassinate the (expletive deleted by examiner editors) n****r and his monkey children”Manson posted the disturbing and openly racist call to assassinate Obama and Obama’s children on his own Facebook wall, which was open to the public. Manson, a Ron Paul libertarian, was angry with Obama over a policy matter.
Failed Tea Party Politician Posts Facebook Page Calling For Obama Assassination | Crooks and Liars
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Manson has since taken down the post and made his Facebook page private, due in no small way to the outrage rightfully directed at him. But that was after Manson tried to rationalize that his use of the n-word didn't make a racist. No, seriously.
Two hours after making the offensive post, and after being bombarded by hundreds of Facebook users outraged by his racist call to assassinate the leader of the free world, Manson made a bizarre Facebook post, presumably in the hopes of justifying his unjustifiable rant. There Mason argued that using the word “n****r” does not make him a racist.
Okay, then. Manson ran as a "Libertarian conservative" for City Council for the City of Carson in Los Angeles County and lost. Manson was upset over the NDAA vote, although curiously, his call for assassination didn't involve anyone in Congress who overwhelmingly voted for it, nor does it explain his inclusion of the Obama children or use of really repulsive racist language. Whatever caused his outrage, I hope he thinks it's worth the Secret Service visit he so richly deserves.
- 83 votes
How is it that Manson is still out? If he had a joint in his sock then the cops would be all over him!
- 73 votes
Maybe HE'S who wrote those racist Ron Paul newsletters way back when. You know, the ones Ron Paul knew about but didn't to anything to stop. Sounds like this guy is a kindred spirit. ;-)
- 58 votes
I assume the Secret Service has Mr. Jules Manson confined to a safe place. He seems to be a NUT case and needs to be confined where he can be watched 24/7.
These type people are a danger to society and need to be removed from the street.
- 58 votes
Maybe HE'S the one who wrote those racist Ron Paul newsletters way back when
Wow, I have heard of them before.
- 22 votes
This guy must be Charles' retarded cousin.
Or perhaps his evil twin.
I would imagine running for office in CA with that last name must have its own challenges. :-)
- 42 votes
Comment collapsed by the communityThis guy must be Charles' retarded cousin.
Or perhaps his evil twin.
I would imagine running for office in CA with that last name must have its own challenges. :-)
To say nothing of his own ignorance and rancor that played a role in his loss in running for public office.
- 36 votes
I am suprised to have not heard a news alert that the secret service has detained Jules Manson for public threats against the POTUS and his family?? This a federal crime!
- 47 votes
Why hasn't he been arrested? Isn't calling for the assassination of the President, like, a federal offense?
- 44 votes
Just have to love those love filled Christians! This guy still on the street?
- 37 votes
teabagger!
and for those of you who say not to use that term, well there are tea party supporters, but this guy is a teabagger, period.
oh, and yeah, there are no racists in the tea party. this proves it.
- 39 votes
I hope we are not seeing a new brand of domestic terrorism. We have enough ultra-conservative-racial bias talk show hosts already.
- 35 votes
Ah... that TEAbag Patriotism! Can't you just smell that brew?!
Luckily for everyone...
When the DOJ reports warned of right-wing radicals the GOPbag, FOXganda, and the whole far rightwingosphere was able to whine and command an immediate revision.
and TEAbags have an organizational construct just diverse enough to hide behind the "he's just a lone nut, we're reasonable patriots!" skirt/disclaimer. I'm pretty sure they're pulling it on right now... it's the little black dress of the "conservative" right's hate based world. Working so hard to have constant vitriolic messages that blame the President for everything from hangovers to unplanned pregnancies and global recessions sparked by their own policies requires such a wardrobe standard; wouldn't do to actually be rightfully blamed for the kinds of acts their institutionally cultivated hatreds will likely cause, eh?
- 35 votes
Why hasn't he been arrested? Isn't calling for the assassination of the President, like, a federal offense?
Apparently, an individual must actually fire at the White House with bullets, not invective, to be arrested.
- 7 votes
Ufabs, please tone it down a bit. This type of behavior is not typical of all people on the right, so let's not pretend it is. Thanks.
- 19 votes
ufabs said various, meaning some.
This type of behavior is not typical of all people on the right, so let's not pretend it is.
ufabs did not say that it was.
- 21 votes
Just have to love those love filled Christians! This guy still on the street?
Did I miss something....is there any mention of him being a Christian because I missed, or that just another anti-Christian rant, because a number of people voted it up.
- 6 votes
Much like one has to love the compassionate liberal. 1.15 seems to be the best one so far. And we get a need to tone it down a bit. Lol.
No 800 he did not he did imply that his description(s) applies to ALL on the right, in their various and liberal labeled incarnations.
- 8 votes
I believe it is a significant percentage of the Right.
What proof do you have?
I believe it is not.
- 4 votes
took me about a second and a half to find this on the web.
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621
My favorite is:
On July 11, 2007, Nobel Peace Prize laureate Betty Williams gave the keynote speech to the International Women’s Peace Conference in Dallas, Texas, and said (to laughter and applause from the audience):
“I mean right now, I could kill George Bush, no problem. No, I don’t mean that. I mean — how could you nonviolently kill somebody? I would love to be able to do that.”
Point being radicals abound everywhere...some just do not get paid attention to.
- 4 votes
Was a time, not that long ago, when just "Joking" about assassinating the POTUS could yet you a real quick 20-life. No passing go, no free pass, straight off to jail.
Why it is allowable with this particular President is beyond me.
- 23 votes
Read it again, in context,
...various tea party people, conservatives, republicans, bigots, racists and imbeciles, this guy is about average.
He said he was an average representation of tea party people, AND conservatives, AND republicans, AND bigots, AND racists.
He did paint with a broad brush, he didn't try and say he was a representation of the most extreme of any of them, he said he was the average.
- 6 votes
It is a crime to threaten the president and his family and I'm sure the Secret Service is investigating it, though how closely he actually threatened would be the question-does it fill the legal requirements of a threat? Anyone that threatens the President of the United States deserves a Secret Service take down, I don't care what party the President happens to be from.
- 16 votes
Please name for me the last person sentenced for 20 to life for joking about killing the President. When did it occur, since it wasn't that long ago as you say.
I really am curious since the penalty for making a threat against the President maxes at 5 years and a $250,000 fine. And of course that the SCOTUS threw out a case against a kid who really did utter words which could have been a threat, but lacked intent and that others laughed at (indicating they were a joke or hyperboyle). But that was in 1969, so I don't think Obama had been elected at that point.
- 2 votes
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXT8gd7FC7Y
Maybe all these people need to be arrested as well.
- 4 votes
how has the secret service not taped his phones and taken him into indefinite custody?
- 5 votes
FriscoKid
Maybe no one was arrested for calling for Bush to be killed is the Secret Service is really secret about it being a left wing organization!
/s
BTW, I hope you are from Frisco, TX and not San Francisco, CA. Hmmm, sorry but that is obvious, as no one from San Francisco ever refers to it as Frisco.
- 5 votes
Didn't you read the comment from daMamma:
just "Joking" about assassinating the POTUS could yet you a real quick 20-life...Why it is allowable with this particular President is beyond me.
At least some of the people in those videos must have gotten 20-life, right?
- 1 vote
The right depends on this argument. They stand next to and require the support of the most radical of their wing and loudly disclaim any allegiance the moment any nut publicly goes too far. When an abortion doctor is murdered out comes the cloth of denial to embrace all those who's rhetoric and emotion had fueled the engine of destruction thus unleashed. Wrapped tightly in their cloaks of feigned innocence the firebrands can continue to pour their flammables till another yet another engine is sparked and the cloth of innocence is again required.
Why should those who stand next to a murderer, those who goad him on, those who feed his hatreds and fears, and those who cultivate fertile soil for his actions to grow from root to ultimate fruition be NOT seen in the same light? Why should those who work ever so hard to collectively de-legitimize the sitting president as a monkey, a muslim manchurian candidate, as a socialist dictator, or a myriad of other commonly held and espoused "conservative" assertions not be seen in the same light as those who're actually caught with those opinions wrapped around their ankles like disgusting unbelted pants? Because they are different? Because while they may diligently cut kindling, pile the pyre, and then feed the fire thus created they are not themselves the fire which burns so hotly?
Give me a break.
The dignity of those who once supported this Manson cretin is not my concern. The legitimacy of the movement of people who shared his thoughts, emotional mindset, and political values ismy concern. This "man" simply went on a very Lush Rimbo rant but used the N word directly.. instead of hiding it amongst rhetoric meant to allow him plausible deniability. To blithely deny the widespread nature and political commonality of this ONE TEAbag to others just because he let fly publicly what is usually said privately or amongst like minded folk alone may be kind.. but kindness given by mistake indeed.
Around the nation we've seen it again and again and again; some racist buffoon saying words or sending letters and emails which when publicly revealed suddenly become the actions of "just an individual; not at all representative" all over again.
By allowing the right to continue acting the way they do while artificially segregating them from the very nuts they deliberately foment.. you serve no-one but those on the right. And as long as today's right is a "do it all my way or else" entity I can see no reason to serve them thus.
- 30 votes
Frisco Kid,
I am not defending Betty Williams, her choice of words were repugnant, especially for a Noble Laureate. But there is a difference between an Irish citizen making that statement in Australia, and an American citizen and politician putting that on facebook.
Not to mention the obvious racist implications of Manson's quote.
- 17 votes
Name calling. Racism. Hatred promoting. Constant negativity. Finger pointing.
Cripes, people! What ever happened to conducting oneself with proper decorum, voting with dignity yet accepting the majority will rule? Why would anybody ever call for the death of another human being based on a position being held for a short period of time?
Why can't we be nice to each other anymore?
- 9 votes
Tea Partier...Ron Paul Libertarian...RACIST...this helps explain why so many of the Republican rank and file are of the 'low information' variety. And, they bare watching (by law enforcement).
- 9 votes
They stand next to and require the support of the most radical of their wing and loudly disclaim any allegiance the moment any nut publicly goes too far.
those who goad him on, those who feed his hatreds and fears, and those who cultivate fertile soil for his actions to grow from root to ultimate fruition be NOT seen in the same light?
Around the nation we've seen it again and again and again; some racist buffoon saying words or sending letters and emails which when publicly revealed suddenly become the actions of "just an individual; not at all representative" all over again.
And as long as today's
rightleft is a:"do it all my way or else"
"do it all my way or else"
"do it all my way or else"
"do it all my way or else"
entity I can see no reason to serve them thus.
Shall we also speak of bulls-eyes, being caught "behind enemy lines", and maps "targeting" individuals? As I am seeing more and more often, outrage is very often shaped by an individual frame of reference.
- 4 votes
What ever happened to conducting oneself with proper decorum, voting with dignity yet accepting the majority will rule?
Why can't we be nice to each other anymore?
Because that would differ from the norm, regardless of party by the way.
P.S. Well off to work, have a nice day everyone. Time to see if the neighbor to the north loses it (hope not).
- 2 votes
From my experience with various tea party people, conservatives, republicans, bigots, racists and imbeciles, this guy is about average.
This is true! I don't know how there hasn't been a Civil War started by the tea party yet! They have done everything up to outright threatening Civil War as a response to not winning in a valid, democratic election right here in the good ol' USA. Not only were such threats cheered, they were used to ride Teapublicans right into office :( So much for Secret Service doing their job!?!
Check out marker 5:20 and onward http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB7g3y597fs&feature=youtu.beThis was just last year before the midterm election. The campaign manager (Joyce Kaufman) for now Teapublican Congressman Allen West (with Allen West at the side of the stage waiting to speak himself)made a call for spilled blood of Americans who are not Teapublicans if the tea party were not to have made substantial gains in the midterm election - which they did. Add that to all the second amendment talk from both Teapublican politicians and members, and it is hard to argue that violence & murder is not a common theme of the tea party. http://wecameunarmedthistime.tumblr.com/
Yes. The tea party does seem to place violence, &even murder of Americans, a lill too high on their totem pole. Especially when the bar for such a label is only as high as the use of such violent propaganda - that allows one to not even have to go so far as to list the samples of recent Tea party terrorism in America such as the i-580 shooter in Oakland, ca who was a Beck follower.
I truly fear what will happen when (and it will happen) the Tea party finally starts to lose dramatically within the next few elections, bring down the entire Republican party with them. What will such "conservative" minded people do in a very liberal America? How will they act? Will they be as the IRA was/is to Ireland? Will they attempt a violent coup? Will they side with Iran or North Korea choosing an "enemy" with a common goal of bringing down (the then) very Liberal America, rather than accept living under what they consider a "socialist" Government? Scary. All the more reason to confront them too!
- 13 votes
Ron Paul actually said he would not have voted for the civil rights act.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/ron-paul-i-would-not-have-voted-for-the-1964-civil-rights-act-video.php
Just about a year after his son Rand Paul stepped in it when he told Rachel Maddow he was opposed to provisions of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) told Chris Matthews Friday he wouldn't have voted for the law in the first place had he been in Congress at the time.
- 15 votes
I want palin,bachmann,perry,cain,gingrich,romney,santorum,trump,or paul as our next POTUS.
Now THAT'S a fu**ing joke,not killing POTUS and his family. Sheesh.
It seems as if the 1st Amendment applies ONLY to derrr rrright,as long as it's followed with the ol' "I'm joking" disclaimer.
Bi,bi next year asswipes.
- 6 votes
Cool it on the insults, okay? You know they're against the CoH.
- 5 votes
Link I found on Ron Paul, a lot I didn't know about Paul...
- 3 votes
Looks like he spoke at a conference on secession back in '95.
- 4 votes
I wonder what the FOX News coverage of this will be? Will they call him a liberal or link him to OWS? Oh wait, since he is one of their own they will just bury the story.
- 7 votes
You know, I had a nicely worded reply for 'ufabs' all written out, when I saw the amount of hate and racism and frightfully mentally malfunctioning thought processes that proceeded to produce the reply #1.15, but then I was relieved to see Loretta tell this writer to..."please tone it down a bit", which made me feel so much better, I decided that this article and those who are commenting with so much predjudice, hatred, racism, anger, B.S., close-mindedness, thoughtlessness, and those who are IN AGREEMENT with such petty, vile, fallacious statements, just must not be liberals at all. The 'YOUR DICTIONARY' definition of a liberal is:
"Liberal describes someone who is open minded and progressive in their views."
The people commenting here, the ones I had thought of as liberals, obviously aren't, according to that definition, because what I see here is representative of views of an extremely hate filled, small minded few, who attempt to collectively assemble all Tea Party persons, and all Conservatives and all true God fearing, kind people into one lump sum of 'garbage'. According to Ufabs:
Some long years hence when these god awful tea party, conservative, republican, weirdo christian @!$%#s are gone and buried in the landfill of political history there still will not be anything nice to say about them.
It is so nice that Loretta suggested this be 'toned down a bit'.
Anybody that would threaten ANY President or Cabinet, no matter HOW MUCH THEY DISAGREE WITH POLICY, has no brain- meaning insane. Anyone that would lump together ALL people who are different from themselves- that is..., who says...
various tea party people, conservatives, republicans, bigots, racists and imbeciles, this guy is about average. About the only thing he didn't do was to invoke christ, god and his dead mother to cover for his sick, perverse, hate filled bs. .....,
certainly has no brain either- meaning ... -----e.
Great to know if this nation goes into the hands of that type of predjudiced, hate filled, pea brained type of person, we will all be able to get along, finally.........---
- 5 votes
The hate filled, insulting rhetoric on both sides is destroying our nation. Anyone who loves our nation should stop and think before they post insults aimed at degrading and devaluing legitimate political views.
Of course, there are views, like the one that is the topic of this seed, that should be deplored by every patriotic American no matter which side of the political fence they reside.
- 12 votes
Anyone that would lump together ALL people who are different from themselves- that is..., who says...
various tea party people, conservatives, republicans, bigots, racists and imbeciles, this guy is about average. About the only thing he didn't do was to invoke christ, god and his dead mother to cover for his sick, perverse, hate filled bs. .....,
certainly has no brain either- meaning ... -----e.
You do know that is an insult?
Anyone that would lump together ALL people who are different from themselves- that is..., who says... certainly has no brain either- meaning ... -----e.
I'm not sure the statement you are insulting is so much an insult as it is an appropriate response on a human level to a sick perverse hate filled mans' statement about killing a sitting President of the United States. Yes it is ugly, but what the racist bigot in question said is a very ugly subject to approach. It is the subject and the teapartier in question that is insulting. It is the general acceptance of such violent rhetoric and threats from the tea party by the tea party.
Calling white people from 1950 racist is insulting, but as a general rule it was true, even though many weren't. Calling tea partiers racist violent people is true as a general statement when at large they have more than accepted segments of their own party who speak of birth certificates and Kenya and second amendment remedies. If it weren't true, wouldn't the tea party as a whole have rejected their own who spoke of fixing our Gov through any means other than legislation? The same for their own who cry that Obama is not even an American citizen? Yet Republican/Tea party candidates & politicians who espouse such beliefs as fact have excelled in polls and popularity. How can it not be said that the tea party is racist & violent when two of their mainstays are that our President was born in Kenya & that when & if voting booths fail their agenda, that bullet boxes are the only viable alternative to continued survival?
And let's continue w/o insults?
- 11 votes
It is the subject and the teapartier in question that is insulting. So is the general acceptance of such violent rhetoric and threats from the tea party by the tea party.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/martinluth133707.html
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
The same can possible be said about the Tea party. As good as their intentions may have been, the Tea party bio is being written by their racist, violent ideology & acts, being sealed/written in stone by the silence of their greater majority (that is if their majority truly do not hold racist violent political values) for forever.
If the Tea party is not racist, if the tea party is not violent, then why was Allen West elected on a campaign of "get me into office or burn the house down with everyone inside!"? Why the acceptance of people walking around with "we came unarmed this time" signs? Why the glorification of people who stand up and call our President a Kenyan? Or a racist? Why is Sara Palin is being asked to sign guns even after Giffords had part of her head blown off? And even more of a question, why does Sara Palin sign them!?! If the majority of Teapartiers are just average nice people, then they need to stand up to the small minority of thugs & bigots in their mix to make it clear to everybody that that's not what they stand for. Because right now racism and violence are being displayed as core values of the Tea party either by the voice of their majority, or by their silence.
- 9 votes
FTA:
Manson posted the disturbing and openly racist call to assassinate Obama and Obama’s children on his own Facebook wall, which was open to the public. Manson, a Ron Paul libertarian, was angry with Obama over a policy matter.
This person is a dangerous person with no understanding of the value of human life. He needs to be detained and locked away. I hope he realizes that by posting insanity like that he is placing himself and his family in danger. There are nut cases on both sides of the issue who think violence is the answer.
All violence does is destroy things, and make other people violent.
- 8 votes
This guy's spleen will probably explode when Obama gets re-elected in 2012! Hopefully it'll be posted on Utube....
- 9 votes
WHT the hell was Zoo and Ufab collapsed. NOTHING overly offensive but rather insighfu. I guess the brain-dead lemmings of the baggie persuasion were too @!$%#ing thin skinned....as usual!
Can't handle the TRUTH!
- 4 votes
Loretta.....Don't see where I have ever attacked LEGITIMATE political views! Political STUPIDITY....sure. (keep in mind I was raised as a [r] so I know their type first hand!
- 4 votes
Not sure why you think that comment was addressed to you. But:
(keep in mind I was raised as a [r] so I know their type first hand!
There is not a "type" that fits everyone on the left or the right.
I guess the brain-dead lemmings of the baggie persuasion were too @!$%#ing thin skinned....as usual!
This is an insult based on your use of a stereotype. Please observe the CoH. Your vocabulary and communication skills are more than sufficient to make your argument clear without resorting to language that adds nothing of value to the discussion.
- 5 votes
devaluing legitimate political views.
The problem being Conservatives these days dont have legitimate views. So claim all you want that they are just opposite opinions on facts , but we all know that is not true.
- 3 votes
The problem being Conservatives these days dont have legitimate views.
Please don't confuse the regressives that are in charge of the Republican Party now with Conservatives. I know they are trying to usurp the name, but don't let them. Regressives is a more appropriate name for their ideology. And delusional since they want to regress back to a past that never existed. A time when private and religious charities were capable of meeting the needs of the poor and destitute, Laissez Faire economics worked to everyone's benefit, all medicines and foods were safe and effective. And the list goes on. One of my favorites is back when the founding fathers didn't rest until slavery was ended. Or the first shot of the Revolutionary War was fired in Concord, New Hampshire. Or protest the Government getting involved with their Social Security and Medicare.
Please, do not lump these people in with Conservatives.
- 4 votes
I ask for respect for both sides, and you choose to post an insult. That reflects badly on you, not conservatives. It is against the CoH. Please read the CoH and abide by it.
- 4 votes
WHT the hell was Zoo and Ufab collapsed. NOTHING overly offensive but rather insighfu. I guess the brain-dead lemmings of the baggie persuasion were too @!$%#ing thin skinned....as usual!
Can't handle the TRUTH!
You know you're doing good job when Right tries to shut you up.
I feel like Alan Grayson. :)
- 3 votes
It amazes me how hateful some can be and this pretty much is at the top of any list. Sometimes I feel like I'm living in the South in the 60's. What we are hearing from some humans is over the top scary. Anyone with this type of mindset is disturbingly ill.
- 46 votes
Sometimes I feel like I'm living in the South in the 60's.
Agreed. It is sad and scary enough that someone would even think, let alone vocalize, what he wrote for the world to see.
Whatever caused his outrage, I hope he thinks it's worth the Secret Service visit he so richly deserves.
Indeed he does. Fingers crossed.
- 33 votes
It's not surprising. The vitriol and hate coming from the far right, and spread through major right-wing media, just encourages this kind of thinking. From the blogosphere's Breitbart, Drudge, etc to the talk radio propagandists, to Fox's sorry excuse for a news organization --- this is the message that's sent out 24/7.
- 41 votes
From the blogosphere's Breitbart, Drudge, etc to the talk radio propagandists, to Fox's sorry excuse for a news organization --- this is the message that's sent out 24/7.
Yeah, right. Why dont you show some links to these people and anyone else from Fox News calling for the assassination of the president and calling him and his family "monkeys."
Oh, I almost forgot. Dont even start by saying that "EVERYONE knows this is true"
We'll wait...
- 8 votes
Why dont you show some links to these people and anyone else from Fox News calling for the assassination of the president and calling him and his family "monkeys."
We just did. Tea Party has spoken. I assume the full weight of Fox News' opinion is behind Mr. Manson, as they have been since they helped create the Tea Party. Or do you not remember all of that footage of Fox News talking heads leading Tea Party rallies?
You can't unassociate yourself from the Tea Party, Foxbots. You own this guy's words. Enjoy.
- 49 votes
Oh, I almost forgot. Dont even start by saying that "EVERYONE knows this is true"
In other words, only refute your statement by declaring untrue something we all know is true?
That's like asking someone to solve a math problem only using formulas you created in -your- head.
- 27 votes
Having been a young adult when John F. Kennedy was assassinated followed up by the assassination of Martin Luther King and then Robert Kennedy in 1968, I worry about the President.
JFK's assassination was so shocking, repulsive, and painful, that the entire nation was in mourning. The fact that he was taken down by a nobody, a failure, made it even more repulsive and painful. I still havn't gotten over it. Thinking about it today makes me hurt inside.
That guy should be severely punished.
- 39 votes
Check this link out
http://www.anorak.co.uk/202487/politicians/obama-the-new-york-monkey-in-bushs-image.html/
- 7 votes
Aint' Murdoch rag NYpost portrayed obama as a monkey being shot with the stimulus,Its the same as Fox. Its newscorp.
- 24 votes
We just did.
Um, no you didnt.
I assume the full weight of Fox News' opinion is behind Mr. Manson
Thats your first mistake - assuming something and stating it as the truth.
You can't unassociate yourself from the Tea Party, Foxbots
I guess you, and others, cant read. So I'll repeat my post a lil slower this time.
"show some links to these people (Breitbart and Drudge) and anyone else from Fox News calling for the assassination of the president and calling him and his family "monkeys."
There...now I've made it simple.
and BTW - its 'disassociate", not "unassociate".
- 6 votes
What IAS wants is to set up an argument so narrow no one can meet the goal. Im sure that if you could find someone saying the exact same words, IAS would move the goal posts or use the ever popular "you did it to" defense of the right wing.
Many, many in the Tea Party have all engaged in lying and intimidation among bother things. All of them are ready to explode with rage over complete lies.- and they all follow the Fox news narrative, also a pack of lies.
Since 2009
Brietbart edited a video of Sherrod trying to make it appear she's a racist, That speaks for itself on whether Brietbart is a racist. He needed to conjure some other supposed racist to hide behind. The "you did it to defense"
Beck while on Fox stated that Progressives need to be hunted down. "Grab a torch" Poison Pelosi" Then covers his butt legally by making a couple of "dont be violent " statements on air.
one of the Fox news cult had a shoot out with police,
another held up a "niggar" sign,
yet another makes an entire video describing how the tea party is not racists by using racism,
another screams "the only good communist is a dead communist"
many wear loaded guns to Town halls in an attempt to intimidate those who support health care reforms.
another Tea couple walks around a man and his wife video taping a Tea party rally , they call him and his wife @!$%#s and try and intimidate him,
another individual smashes his car into the one in front of him because it had an Obama bumper sticker,
a few yelled racist slurs at black Congressmen
one stomped on the head of a girl carrying a sign outstretched in her hands.
There are a myriad of examples of right wing people inciting and engaging in violence. I can list more.
You are who you hang with. this isnt just one person.
- 27 votes
Rorschach-558483
It's not surprising. The vitriol and hate coming from the far right, and spread through major right-wing media, just encourages this kind of thinking. From the blogosphere's Breitbart, Drudge, etc to the talk radio propagandists, to Fox's sorry excuse for a news organization --- this is the message that's sent out 24/7.
How can you or anyone with an I.Q. consider FAUX a ''NEWS ORGANIZATION". Trashy garbage station - NOT CREDITABLE news.
- 18 votes
Dont like Fox news?
Then watch something else, say that bastian of fairness, objectivity, and void-of-any-party-affiliation MSNBC...
- 5 votes
@ It Aint So Denial - weren't you over at the David Axelrod-Gingrich seed arguing that "monkey" wasn't racist in any context?
- 19 votes
Uh, it ain't so:
MSNBC makes a distinct difference between its news reporting and its commentary. Apparently you do not understand the difference.
Fox News has the reputation of having an audience less informed than if the audience didn't watch Fox News.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-11-22/news/30431182_1_fox-news-results-show-viewers
...and this was written in the NY Daily News - hardly a bastion of left wing thinking.
- 17 votes
The fact that he was taken down by a nobody, a failure, made it even more repulsive and painful. I still havn't gotten over it.
He wasn't taken down by a nobody, and none of us should ever be over it. It was a coup d'état and that will probably never come out for the world to know the truth.
People will always threaten the POTUS...and it's unfortunately very sick.
- 5 votes
Fox News has the reputation of having an audience less informed than if the audience didn't watch Fox News.
Fox "News" also argues in court that there is no law against -- indeed, that they have a First Amendment right to -- misrepresenting the news; same reason they sought to overturn Canada's law against it and aren't/weren't available there. no legitimate journalism organization, nobody truly interested in being "fair and balanced" would make such an assertion unless they meant to act on it.
- 8 votes
weren't you over at the David Axelrod-Gingrich seed arguing that "monkey" wasn't racist in any context?
No, I wasnt.
MSNBC makes a distinct difference between its news reporting and its commentary
Really? Tell me what that difference is. You should be able to articulate that in less than 25 words, right off the top of your head.
Fox News has the reputation of having an audience less informed than if the audience didn't watch Fox News
Maybe you should read the entire article.
But since you wish to bring up "intelligence", I'll ask you a question - who do you think is more civically literate, members of the Tea Party, or the Dem voting base?
I'll give you a few minutes to decide.
- 1 vote
Bacon and eggs....LUV THE NAME
This Manson is a moron, and I am under the impression this is a serious crime, so hopefully Manson gets dealt with to the fullest extent of the law
However you wrote----a few yelled racist slurs at black Congressmen
Actually, thats a lie. Never happened...or if it did, at the moment it happened, every news camera stopped recording audio, everyones cell phone camera stopped working, because while this is an oft repeated accusation to "prove" the racism of the tea party, no video or audio exists.....and since this supposedly happened when there was throngs of people (I would guess 90% of all having cell phone cameras)- and all the major news agencies were covering it, NO ONE can come up with any , zero, none ,zilch evidence that actually shows , it happening.
So, either all the news agency cameras stopped working for the 5 or 10 seconds this "chant" took place....or
Its a Lie.
Much of that post you have is filled with innacuracies and half truths, but I always find this particular lie one of the more amusing ones.
- 2 votes
It Aint So
No contest there Pal. The average Tea Party member is fairly hateful, and despite any educational achievements, they are not very emotionally intelligent.
- 11 votes
AZPADDY
The average person who tries to brandish the tea party in a deragatory way is fairly hateful, and despite any educational achievements, they are not very emotionally intelligent.
- 2 votes
RobDebo
Hey! Think up your own comments. The Tea Party doesn't need any help from me in portraying themselves as hateful. They've done that consistantly since FreedomWerks began funding their rallys.
BTW..."Brandish" the Tea Party?? I think you meant "Brand" the Tea Party.
- 9 votes
I always worry when a teabagger brandishes anything, be it yamsack or penis extension...
- 5 votes
AZPADDY --- those were "original" thoughts...you thought those up all on your own?? ROFLMAO
Never heard the tea party called hateful, never heard their intelligence called into question, here on the Vine....Nope...Never....Yep. fer sure, thats' an original thought...
You're kidding right?
- 2 votes
MSNBC makes a distinct difference between its news reporting and its commentary.
Are you sure about that? Are these from news or commentary then:
That plan was nixed, apparently with some political optics in mind.
...
That move is a bid to shift political blame to the Democrats who control the Senate.
Are those factual statements (reporting), or opinions/commentary?
Want to guess what they are listed as by MSNBC:
It's from "The first place for news and analysis from the NBC News Political Unit." (in other words they mix their news and commentary together) source, the second from here.
- 1 vote
paddy
"No contest there Pal. The average Tea Party member is fairly hateful, and despite any educational achievements, they are not very emotionally intelligent."
i do not know about hateful, but quite a few are intolerant, and the group is not as inclusive, as it claims to be.
- 5 votes
weren't you over at the David Axelrod-Gingrich seed arguing that "monkey" wasn't racist in any context?
No, I wasnt.
ok, my mistake; sorry.
- 3 votes
Much of that post you have is filled with innacuracies and half truths, but I always find this particular lie one of the more amusing ones."
Prove me wrong then. I heard it myself, and everyone of those is on the internet. So all of those examples are true,whether you want to admit it or not.
- 1 vote
Has anyone checked to see if he is an offspring of Charlie Manson?
"thieves become rich as the rich become thieves"
democrat jr.
- 17 votes
#3 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:35 AM ESTAnd just think.
That person if married and/or the parent of children is perpetuating and promoting that exact same kind of ignorance and hatred down the generational line.
With the current vitriolic climate in this nation it does not surprise me that abject idiots like this are projectile vomiting out the detritus that makes up their true characters and that there are people who don't deserve to be called Americans are supporting, applauding and encouraging more rhetoric like this.
You have to consider the source.
Ignorance is as ignorance does.
It seems that many on the Conservative Right Wing, especially on the Evangelical feather, ignorance is something to be proud of.....they truly relish the fact that they are nothing but ignorant, hateful people without a moral or ethical compass despite their protestations to the contrary.
- 29 votes
#4 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:43 AM ESTThis can not be tolerated. If it is than we have not moved anywhere past 1940. Just because this "man" did not hire a hit man does not mean that this was not a direct threat to the security of the POTUS!! To allow someone to get off the hook for this is to allow people to just walk into the White House any time they want to!
The media wants us to become disgruntle about this loser calling Pres. Obama a ni##er, so the public doesn't direct it's attentions on the fact he is saying that someone need to commit ASSASINATION!! Are you kidding me! WHo in their right mind would even utter that word in a public forum, let alone anywhere.
This idiot should be put under the jail cell for the rest of his life!
- 21 votes
#5 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:50 AM ESTAnd the Teabaggers will claim that this is an isolated incident (Another one) that doesn't really reflect their beliefs.
- 32 votes
#6 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:51 AM ESTLots of isolated incidents are not isolated. They are part of a pattern, a campaign of hate, if you will.
Fox News has lead this charge and they will be held fully responsible.
- 28 votes
TheBusyMonster, I have to agree with you that Fox, Limbaugh and the rest of the right wingers out there push hatred on a daily basis and we see a lot of their results here on the vine. How can anybody defend this type of bs? I'll bet you a dollar, that once this story gets more publicity, Fox will play the victim and say "It's not our fault that people out there take us seriously."
- 18 votes
And the Teabaggers will claim that this is an isolated incident
Just as the Left claimed that acts of violence, rapes, trashpiles, and crapping on police cars were all "isolated" acts by fleabaggers at OWS "events".
Fox News has lead this charge and they will be held fully responsible.
I'm sure...
- 3 votes
tu quoque tu quoque tu quoque
Just as the Left claimed that acts of violence, rapes, trashpiles, and crapping on police cars were all "isolated" acts by fleabaggers at OWS "events".
Is the guy who crapped on the cop car running for public office?
didn't think so.
- 12 votes
No rapes and no violence occurred at ows except for the violence perpetrated by the police.
That's silly right wing propaganda. Glenn Beck alleged the entire ows covered it up. How silly.
The vile right wing stands alone in its decisions to incite violence, engage in violence and push propaganda. The next step being to accuse others of what they are doing, as if that somehow justifies their actions in any way.
- 22 votes
Fox will play the victim and say "It's not our fault that people out there take us seriously."
classic.
- 5 votes
Loretta Kemsley
Don't let anyone derail your article. Trust me...they'll do it if you let them.
- 3 votes
crapping on police cars were all "isolated" act
Funny you should mention that little bit of propaganda. Did you hear about it on Fox?
The person in that picture was clearly an older man, and it was taken in the Bronx precinct, not in Manhattan, many miles away from the protest. Oh, no say it isn't so, *palm to forehead*
- 7 votes
Most insidious of all is the charade that racism no longer exists being perpetrated by many on the lunatic fringe. As if a mere 40 or so years has been enough time for this mindset to die out.
- 21 votes
#8 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:52 AM ESTThe greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist...
- 3 votes
I used to believe libertarians were conservatives who weren't as loony and racist and misogynist and uninformed as the average Tea-publican. Then I started paying attention to Grandpa Simpson Ron Paul and the people who are so intoxicated by him (I presume it's by him), and I have come to conclude that those who wear the libertarian label may be the craziest of all.
- 16 votes
I used to believe libertarians were conservatives who weren't as loony and racist and misogynist and uninformed as the average Tea-publican. Then I started paying attention to
Grandpa SimpsonRon Paul and the people who are so intoxicated by him (I presume it's by him), and I have come to conclude that those who wear the libertarian label may be the craziest of all.
I've found that libertarians are just as loony, racist, misogynist, and uninformed as the rest on the right, but in supporting someone they call "Dr.", they think they are "intellectual" conservatives. After all, Ron Paul considers himself the "intellectual architect" of the Tea Party.
Yep, Manson sure sounded intellectual is his rant, didn't he?????
- 14 votes
@Boatrocker
"the difference between a conservative [Republican/teapartyist] and a libertarian is the difference between being run through with a sword and being beaten/decapitated/garotted with a shield." -- T'omm J'Onzz
i.e., 'it's not a weapon, it's a defensive tool! see, i'm not attacking, i'm defending myself, my and others' rights! see? see?!'
- 7 votes
I've found that libertarians are just as loony, racist, misogynist, and uninformed as the rest on the right, but in supporting someone they call "Dr.", they think they are "intellectual" conservatives.
happily (#9.1) They call him a "doctor" because he is a physician, a graduate of Duke. And all libertarians are like this? No thoughtful people with well reasoned and intellectually vigorous political/social views anywhere on the right?
Let's stop the insults, okay? Let's show respect for reasonable people on both sides of the aisle.
- 2 votes
azartguy,
FYI, I am a libertarian in my social views and a social capitalist or capital socialist in my economic views. Ron Paul is an Ayn Rand psychopath and a Libertarian with a capital L as in the party. Please do not lump me in with him. I am totally opposed to serfdom.
- 6 votes
Ron Paul is an Ayn Rand psychopath and a Libertarian with a capital L as in the party. Please do not lump me in with him. I am totally opposed to serfdom.
tim (#96) With all due respect, I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
You are a libertarian but not a Libertarian? And what does Ayn Rand have to do with being a (big L) Libertarian, and are they different that regular (big L) Libertarians, who are in turn different than (small l) libertarians? And what does this all have to do with "serfdom," and in fact, what is "serfdom" these days?
And what is it about being a (big L) Libertarian makes Ron Paul a "psychopath," or is that Ayn Rand that's the psychopath? And if Ron Paul identifies with objectivism, then he's psychopathic? And sure you don't mean sociopath not psychopath ?
You can understand my confusion, and if I "lumped" you in with Ron Paul and that's the wrong group, even though I had no idea you were in one, or the other, group then, my apologies.
ayn rand was a psychopath. the jury is still out on ron paul. his son, rand, is a psychopath, if it makes one feel better.
- 6 votes
Anyone that believes that every individual is capable of gathering, assimilating, and understanding every aspect of human endeavor and its consequences and remaining current in all these varied areas is either a psychopath or delusional. Hi whole ideology depends on every single individual being able to make an informed decision on every single issue and purchase with real time information. Seriously, this is the sign of a sane person?
- 4 votes
Hi whole ideology depends on every single individual being able to make an informed decision on every single issue and purchase with real time information. Seriously, this is the sign of a sane person?
tim (#9.9) Sounds a bit like the basic willing buyer/willing seller/fair exchange model. I don't agree with it, I don't think it will work (or has ever worked on any macro level but I haven't researched it that far) but that doesn't make him insane. In any case, there should be room to criticize the idea without attacking the character or sanity of the person. And I still don't get this attack on Ayn Rand unless you want to talk about her literary qualities and then, yeah, she was aggressively mediocre.
- 1 vote
As for Ayn, her attack on empathy and compassion are characteristics of a psychopathic personality. As is excessive egocentrism. And as was pointed out in another seed there is debate as to whether there is more of a difference between a sociopath and a psychopath than the field one belongs to. I didn't get into it there because to me it is a moot point.
As for Ron, anyone that wants to go back to a Utopian period of history that never existed except in their mind is not mentally all there. Denying that there were legitimate issues that gave rise to the institutions and policies he opposes is an indication of delusion in my book. Now this is different than saying the measures we took and are currently following are not the best we can do. But to deny the reality of the problems in the first place is delusional.
Sounds a bit like the basic willing buyer/willing seller/fair exchange model. I don't agree with it, I don't think it will work (or has ever worked on any macro level but I haven't researched it that far)
Obviously, I don't think it can work in today's world either. It may have worked in an age when every buyer knew every seller and every other buyer on a daily basis. A small agrarian village where word of mouth and personal reputation had serious impact on ones business dealing. Where the buyer and seller had to deal with each other in the daily business and socializing of the community on a regular basis. But that is not the world we live in.
This is similar to personal liberties too. If your actions affect no one but yourself, it is no one else business to say what you can and can not do. But as soon as the liberties and rights of others start to be affected or potentially affected, you lose some of that isolation. And the more it infringes on another's rights or the more people whose rights are affected the more say these people have in your behavior or actions. When your action can negatively impact millions of other people, those people have a right to stop or modify that action. That is a philosophical difference I have with Libertarians, as in the party, and Ron and Rand Paul.
The warped nostalgia is where I have the opinion of delusion at minimum.
- 4 votes
As for Ayn, her attack on empathy and compassion are characteristics of a psychopathic personality. As is excessive egocentrism.
tim (#9.11) We'd all be better served without this kind of arm-chair analysis.
I don't know what a "psychopathic personality" is and I suspect neither do you; and even if you have a working knowledge of psychiatry is would be at best inapprorpiate, and at worst unethical, to engage in this kind of commentary.
Stick to the living, and even then try to restrict your opinions to behavior you see and hear not inferences about the the mind and heart of another.
Since what we think defines how we act and what we believe about ourselves, I don't see why we should not discuss psychological traits.
I have not read Rand, so I don't know if his analysis is correct, but why not discuss whatever she wrote as it fits psychological principles?
- 5 votes
I have not read Rand, so I don't know if his analysis is correct, but why not discuss whatever she wrote as it fits psychological principles?
loretta (#9.13) The point is you can't know "if his analysis is correct." To presume tim, you, me, anyone can "read" the psychology of someone at such a remove is claptrap. It is also arrogant beyond all belief. Think about what you're arguing for: evaluating the psychological makeup of somebody you don't know, have never met, probably know little or nothing about, and who isn't alive to be examined and based on fiction s/he wrote.
Not to mentions that terms such as "psychopathic personality" and "excessive egocentrism" are so vague as to be meaningless; the comments can't "fit psychological principles" because there aren't any involved in this kind of psycho-babble.
This is an interesting seed with a lively discussion, but you're defending something that just doesn't fit the seed and is basically nonsense. How about we all go back to the core discussion and leave this stuff where it belongs, out in left field.
- 1 vote
You're right. It is off-topic, and for that reason, we should not go into it here.
But as to psychoanalyzing fiction, it's done all the time. You'll even see it in reviews. That's where I'm coming from. In that respect, it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong. It doesn't even matter if he's qualified. It's a common activity in the literary world.
- 2 votes
And my last comment on this off-topic subject.
We are talking about a public figure that has a library of writing and extensive interviews. We are not talking about the average person with a single letter to an acquaintance. This type of posthumous analysis is done on historical figures dating back to Alexander the Great and the Pharaohs. I am not claiming it is as accurate as having the individual sit down with a psychologist or psychiatrist for 100s of hours of analysis, but it is not a blind assessment either.
- 3 votes
So I was curious about this guy and Googled him.
Here is an article talking about the candidates' fiscal plans.
Newcomer Jules Manson acknowledged knowing very little about how the city government operates and said his campaign is focused on his libertarian principles. He calls for cutting employees' salaries and pensions.
LOL, sounds like some of today's libertarians, doesn't he? Nothing really to offer but a simplistic, emotion-based ideology.
- 30 votes
LOL, sounds like some of today's libertarians, doesn't he? Nothing really to offer but a simplistic, emotion-based ideology.
Thats right Susan. Well take the worst people we can find who are using the label of whatever groups you belong to and we'll make that example the symbol for them because thats how it really works right?
If you knew anything about libertarian philosophy, you would know addressing many of our problems are anything but simplistic and it is definitely not an emotion based ideology.
- 5 votes
" Nothing really to offer but a simplistic, emotion-based ideology"
Wow , that statement really sums up the entire GOTP party-good observation.
- 12 votes
If you knew anything about libertarian philosophy, you would know addressing many of our problems are anything but simplistic and it is definitely not an emotion based ideology.
LOL
Have you ever done some research into Ron Paul's "solutions"? They're also pretty simplistic.
Cut this, cut that, cut this, cut that.
That's it.
That's pretty much all he's got.
No discussion whatsoever about the consequences of eliminating all of those things he considers "unconstitutional" (that's not even considering the fact that he has a simplistic view of the Constitution).
My view of libertarians was not exactly formed on the basis of one weird guy who makes racist statements.
- 15 votes
Cut this, cut that, cut this, cut that.
I see. So please show me the speeches by your favorite politicians that provide in-depth, full and complete plans for their ideas in the limited time they are given to speak or even on their websites.
No discussion whatsoever about the consequences of eliminating all of those things he considers "unconstitutional" (that's not even considering the fact that he has a simplistic view of the Constitution).
Again, please provide any examples from politicians who do discuss any of the consequences of the plans they advocate? Most media shows only have Ron Paul on to ask him about other candidates, must less what his plans are. I do admit they he does do a poor job of explaining himself at times. Perhaps he just expects people to use a little bit of brain power to understand these things dont happen in a vacuum. Maybe he gives people too much credit.
I dont think you are holding them all to the same standards.
My view of libertarians was not exactly formed on the basis of one weird guy who makes racist statements
You sure? Your comments certainly makes it appear that you think all libertarians believe the same and RP is their spokesman. Neither of which are true.
- 3 votes
oooh, another "independent". #eyeroll
Ah, I do love an in-depth and insightful comment, especially one so original. Did you think that one up yourself or did you have a child's help?
- 3 votes
Susan
"Have you ever done some research into Ron Paul's "solutions"? They're also pretty simplistic.
Cut this, cut that, cut this, cut that."
Sounds like no thought involved . Didn't this country just finished eight years of no thought involved ? And look were we are now.
- 10 votes
"Have you ever done some research into Ron Paul's "solutions"? They're also pretty simplistic
The one I REALLY love is the poor and sick should by cared for by the local churches and charity organizations, rather than the government. Most food banks are empty all across the U.S. even with our government programs, and 18% of infants and children showing up in emergencies room today, which is their only course of healthcare, are either suffering from malnutrition or hunger. Apparently the charity organizations "aren't keeping up".
- 13 votes
Most food banks are empty all across the U.S. even with our government programs, and 18% of infants and children showing up in emergencies room today, which is their only course of healthcare, are either suffering from malnutrition or hunger
Well said. 40,000 people die every year in the US because they do not have health insurance. Every other industrialized country has nationalized health insurance, and they would have survived if they'd lived in any other industrialized country. This means they are dying only because they are American. Should any of us be proud of that?
I don't understand how the audiences at these debates can clap and cheer when he talks about letting people die if they can't afford medical care. Are they so ignorant they do not realize he's talking about them?
- 8 votes
Are they so ignorant they do not realize he's talking about them?
Yes, precisely.
- 6 votes
The man Paul, is creationist who wants to put us back on the gold standard. Just what more do I need to know to call him a stupid insipid slack jawed drooling fool?
reasons (#10.9). Odd thing to say. But since you asked, here's just a little bit more about the man:
- a graduate of Duke University with an M.D. degree
- Captain in the USAF
- Member of Congress
- Candidate for President supported by a few million Americans
Now you can disagree with his politics, argue against his social and political views and criticize the inherent limitations of libertarianism as a viable governance system, but let's please dial back the mean and mean-spirited comments about the man himself.
As far as I can see, he has a strongly held, well reasoned and internally consistent social "philosophy." He's wrong on most of those issues as far as I can see, but he certainly is none of the things you say.
If you can't argue the issues in a reasonable manner without resorting to such ad hominem attacks, perhaps you and a few others of the same stripe here on the forum should just back off and let the adults talk.
I am going to relate just what I know of 1 family, although I know hundreds more, example may be set well by just this one: This family recieves +/- $600.00 in 'food stamps', by electronic card, for 3 children, ages 6, 7 and 9, and in theory- 1 adult female. As the children are allowed free breakfast and lunch through the school program, a lunch is not packed, even though they beg not to eat the school food. I have seen this family shop, and be outraged when the freezer section is out of LOBSTER. When the deli section does not have any of the requested 'Black Forest' deli ham for the mother, when the Porterhouse and T-bone steaks don't look good today.
I have seen these 'food stamps' being used for ENERGY DRINKS for the 2 adults in the family, who guzzle them down like soda, and go through a 4 pk. every two days.
I have seen these kids try to steal from the grocery store: they want stuff, too.
If they were reduced to $350.00 per month, perhaps they would be buying REAL FOOD, and the difference of $250.00 per month might go to another family that needs real food for thire children. Time to look at the whole picture.
This is not a seed about assistance programs. Please stay on topic. Thanks.
- 6 votes
#10.13- So this family is getting $600.00 + in food stamps and because YOU disagree with the way those stamps are used YOU propose to DECREASE their intake. You say you've seen those food stamps being used on sports drinks. When they bought those sports drinks did they also have a gun to the merchants head and FORCED him/her to take those stamps? If they did, you left that important fact out. You say they got upset when the freezer is out of Lobster. Are you proposing since they are on food stamps they shouldn't have taste for anythng else except so called food designed for the poor since they are on government assistance?
You say you've seen those kids try to steal, did you turn them in? If you didn't you broke the Law and are just as guilty as they of attempting to brake the law. Quite sure you are aware RICH KIDS steal too, just ask Neman Marcus and stores on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hill, CA.. Poor kids don't go into those stores, in fact they don't go into that city...
I conclude you have never been on government assistance, I have, and it is a demeaning process. Sure there are people who abuse the system and there are plenty that don't. It's too bad you never hear about them, the ones who use the program for what it's meant for and when they are in the position to get off, they get off. You never hear about them.
For you to advocate decreasing someone's total intake because they don't live up to your expectations in my view you are like what Rich Perry said about those regarding his immigration program in Texas " You don't have a heart". If you disagree that much and feel that family is abusing the program REPORT THEM, be sure to give your name, address and phone number, do it in the open and be PROUD of it. If you are not willing to go the distance then maybe it would be a good idea to just Shut up and mind you own pompous business...
- 7 votes
Sorry, Loretta: I will stay on topic, too. You are right. Thanks, G.
40,000 people die every year in the US because they do not have health insurance.
Wait, 40,000 or 18,000. Senator Sanders sent out information saying 18,000 (or 20,000 depending on what page you're on) die because they don't have access to a doctor. Was he wrong by 20,000+ people?
In 2002 it was 18,000 according to these folks.
This article said it was 45,000 though. But the study said it was a correlated item, associated with, not casual. Mainly because there was no way the study could have made a casual association. But that sure as hell won't stop journalists, politicians, or the misled from describing it as a casual relationship.
You can't ask people today if they have insurance, never follow-up on it, never confirm the claim, and then see who is dead ten years later and figure out that lack of insurance killed them. Because you just don't know if they had insurance or not for that period of time, you only know about that one day you asked the question.
Additionally, as you add more factors to a regression analysis you will get a more accurate report:
The hazard ratio for mortality amoung the uninsured compared with the insured, with adjustment for age and gender only was 1.80. After additional adjustment for race/ethnicity, income, education, self- and physician-related health status, body mass index, leisure exercise, smoking and regular alcohol use, the uninsured were more likely to die than those with insurance.
The hazard dropped to 1.40, or cut the increase in half. Adding more variables (say insurance status at time of death, length of time with no coverage, drug use, criminal background) could see it drop back to the earlier study, which was 18,000 a year. Especially if any of those correlate with lack of insurance and increased risk of mortality. Say criminal activity or drug use, I wonder if they will correlate with insurance status and mortality.
Or it could go up, the simple fact is no one knows, and won't know, because they didn't do it.
- 1 vote
casual relationship.
FYI, typo. the term you mean is causal, not casual as in casual Friday. Not a criticism, just clarifying.
- 4 votes
Jake, you can obfuscate all you wish. I don't find it impressive. You pick the number of Americans you believe is okay to die from denial of medical care due to lack of health insurance. I'll pick -0-.
- 11 votes
Obfuscate, not at all.
The headline says one thing, the study says another, and people either willfully, or out of ignorance repeat the claim. If you found it unintelligible let me make it clear.
- The study did not say, show, prove, or claim that people died because they lacked health insurance. It said a lack of health insurance is associated with it. Ice Cream sales are also associated with higher crime, but it does not cause it.
- As they accounted for more variables the apparent increase in mortality decreased.
- If they accounted for more, some of which we know are associated with an increased risk of death, and would seemingly also correlate to not having insurance it seems likely it would continue to fall.
Is that plain enough?
You can say you want the number to be 0, it might just be.
P.S. Thanks Tim, was kind of rushed, I blame it on typing with 6 fingers rather than touch typing :-)
- 1 vote
In the interest of fairness, the exact same problem is in this story too, which discusses the worse outcomes for people on government run medical plans.
So when people talk about those studies where patients on Medicaid did worse than those on private insurance, or even those on no insurance at all just remember
Correlation does not imply, let alone prove, causation.
- 1 vote
You avoided my question: how many dead Americans are okay with you? Americans whose lives could have been saved with access to medical care?
- 9 votes
Well said. 40,000 people die every year in the US because they do not have health insurance.
I believe this number is a little distorted but 2 million people died last year and if 40,00 died because they did not have insurance how many died because they did?
If you factor deaths and injury due to medical error you might find one of the leading causes of death to be the health system.
- 1 vote
Time to look at the whole picture.
Presenting the single story as the whole picture is dissonance.
- 1 vote
Lisa, that is a little bit of a strange argument, as it seems the only way to prevent the deaths that were caused by the health system, is to get rid of it.
The US is 50th on the list of countries of average life expectancy. Look at the list, and its not because these other countries have better, more competent medical care -
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
Another issue with your point, that I have anyways, my wife being a nurse, is the toll on the health care system that lawsuits are having. It must be in the billions and billions. It seems that no longer can a death in a hospital be natural, but it must have been malpractice. It is tragic and I am not arguing that, but sometimes death just can't be avoided, even though these wonderfully trained and brilliant people are trying their hardest to avoid it.
- 3 votes
All of which ignores the reality that people who cannot access medical care will die of causes that could be cured. So how many American dying because they cannot afford medical care is okay with you? Why can't I get an answer to this very simple question?
- 8 votes
The answer is, they just don't care. Numbers don't mean anything as long as it is not them. Besides, the poor are poor because they are lazy and who really cares if they die off? *Ugh*
- 9 votes
while this whole sub-thread is off-topic, it still remains that people are starving in this country. it still remains that there are millions of homeless, including children. those children should get jobs! jobs, i say! who the hell thinks that homeless eight year olds are a good thing? does having thousands of homeless children make us look more powerful? i do not believe that it does.
on topic:
has anyone heard of anymore of this story? is this man to be punished, or is this free speech?
- 4 votes
I just did a search and nothing new turned up about Jules Manson.
As to the children, it's a national disgrace children have to live in abject poverty in this nation.
- 6 votes
The only things I have heard are that the authorities are investigating, and that, of course, this story is spreading like wildfire. Many more pages springing up, but all saying the same thing. So I guess to summarize - Nothing new. Hopefully. Hopefully not.
- 1 vote
Americans should not have to. Especially our children. The poverty they do know is unacceptable.
- 4 votes
The leading cause of death in this country is birth. The question is not that these people died it is that they died prematurely, from conditions that are treatable. That is the difference. The significance of the figure is that whatever the number is, these people would have had a high survivability rate for those conditions based on the survivability rate of those with access to medical intervention. Illnesses that are 100% curable causing death because the individual did not have ready access to medical care is inhuman and a waste of life and a waste of resources and money (for those callous individuals that only value the almighty dollar). Think of the cost to society when a low income worker dies and the family loses that source of income. Now your taxes have to go toward supporting those dependents. Oh the horror. Maybe we should require those dependents to die with that individual so that the government does steal your precious income.
We are becoming a notion of psychopaths with no ability to experience compassion or empathy. No ability to consider our fellow human beings. What is in it for me is the only consideration. We are not a country, we are a group of individuals occupying the same ground trying to off the other for our personal gain. And this @!$%# Manson is the poster child.
- 7 votes
We are becoming a notion of psychopaths with no ability to experience compassion or empathy. No ability to consider our fellow human beings. What is in it for me is the only consideration
So very well stated Tim. I said this on a different article before, but when you grow up in a country with universal health care, it is a source of great pride that all of your fellow countrymen and women have access to the exact same care as you. Doctors, clinics, emergency rooms, major surgeries, nothing has ever cost us more than our premiums (when I lived there I mean, I don't think any of us paid over $150 a month though I'm not sure on that, I do know at the highest, mine was $53 a month). But even paying what we did, we knew that our money also went to those less fortunate that couldn't afford the premiums themselves.
It would only be a matter of time before the next generation and the next after that grew up without this jaded "Why should I pay for anyone else?" mentality, and would also see it as a source of pride. Its not just strength that makes a country great, its also compassion. Having both would be nothing short of amazing. Besides, just because its not called "universal" or "socialized" doesn't mean that our tax dollars still aren't paying for people on welfare to have a baby...
- 4 votes
Your question includes within it an assertion which is unproven.
Do you at least acknowledge the study from which the 40,000 number seems to come, does not claim they died due to lack of health insurance?
Do you acknowledge that as they accounted for some variables the numbers associated with lack of insurance was cut in half?
As they account for more variables how low would the number go, at what point would the cost far outweigh the benefit?
Is no cost too high?
But if we are going to have that conversation we probably should first find out what the number is shouldn't we. Something that study doesn't do.
P.S. Have a nice day, off to work. Gonna try and connect with the droid today, see if it works.
- 2 votes
I asked what would be an acceptable amount of Americans dying for lack of medical care -- to you, so it does not matter what anyone else says the figure is.
You're trying to complicate the issue so you won't have to answer that very simple question. Why not just answer? What is the number you'd feel comfortable picking with the knowledge those people are dying for no other reason than they do not have medical care? Zero? A million? More? Less? Just pick a figure.
- 5 votes
7, the correct answer is 7. it is not how many i believe, but rather the correct answer. the seven people with the most egregiously/outrageously priced care do not get treatment. these people will be known as the lucky seven, and the seventh person as lucky number seven. of course, winning this lottery is more closely related to that one in the story, you know, what was it called? oh yeah, the lottery.
- 1 vote
A fine conservative that is standing up for all that is good in his tiny world.
- 13 votes
#11 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:07 PM ESTI don't think calls for assassination is protected speech. Obviously this guy is a racist. I don't understand why so many want to label an entire ideology as racists because of this (well, actually I do understand; it is self-serving and aids their ideology to spread false labels). Are there racists in the two major parties? Absolutely. Are their hot-heads in each party? Of course. Neurosis, sexism, zealotry, greed, corruption ......... it is a part of every large group. To label a group out of the actions of a few is nothing more then defammation to further their own agenda.
Or basically, the same old dirty politics it has been. An aspiring city council person. Really high up there in the "libertarian think-tank" for sure :)
I guess we could canvas prison and find some democrats that are rapists, murders, etc...
Would that label progressives? Wait, they are not politicians....... lets go with the ex-gov of Illinois for a recent example then :)
- 10 votes
#12 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:12 PM ESTThe FBI should go after that guy and Face book for allowing it.
- 6 votes
"The FBI should go after that guy and Face book for allowing it."
It's statements like this that make me shake my head. Heaven forbid we expect personal responsibility. There are millions and millions of Facebook pages. The site was flagged and reported, what more would you like for them to do ? I am sure they are not going to police them all unless you want them to be tracking every single comment you make. Realism please.
- 4 votes
The FBI should go after that guy and Face book for allowing it.
You know how Tyler and Sally have so much trouble keeping track of things on NV? Imagine trying to do that on Facebook, with 350 Million members.
The only entity responsible for the guy's post is the guy.
- 10 votes
The FBI should go after that guy and Face book for allowing it.
The L.A. Times, says the Secret Service is "aware"....beyond they do not say. The politician gave a warning (libertarian) that if free speech is limited in any way,then the whole society is at great risk. According to him, anyone should be able to call for the assassination of the President. I wonder if he'd be so understanding if someone called for his assassination and the message went out to millions, with the knowledge that there is at least one crazy who could follow through?
- 4 votes
what more would you like for them to do ? I am sure they are not going to police them all unless you want them to be tracking every single comment you make. Realism please.
If they create a social media, they are responsible, aiding and abiding a crime. WHy do you think Craigs list tightened up. Or you think no one is responsilble for their actions, Flagged, big @!$%#ing deal.
Realism Please-I see the bigger picture, why cant you????
- 3 votes
Have a nice time in federal prison, jackass.
The thing that really gets me is that the charge of racism is the only thing the TP crowd cares to refute; the call to murder Obama's wife and children... they don't even bother with.
Disgusting.
You know why I'm not a "conservative"? Because I don't want to be associated with vile morons like this in any way, shape or form.
Whatever they want, I don't want any part of it, but thanks for reminding voters where the TP really stands.
- 29 votes
#13 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:14 PM ESTOnly "vile morons" exist on the conservative side, eh? :) I would think that the reason anyone believes in something would not be influenced because of what some of the crowd feels or what other people are saying. Strong individuals believe in what they think is right and is not swayed by peer pressure or out of fear of what others would think about them.
- 5 votes
Chris, insults are against the CoH. I'm sure your vocabulary and communication skills are broad enough to make your point without violating the CoH, so please refrain in the future.
- 5 votes
Libertarian, if you can show me a Democrat racist-ly calling for the assassination of W or Cain or other Republican candidate/politician, i will gladly, vehemently condemn it.
- 8 votes
Have at it T'omm ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots
- 1 vote
EJ - while i certainly condemn all those assassinations and attempts, and events within our lifetime notwithstanding particularly considering the flip in political polarity/orientation between the parties since, oh, maybe WW2, as Tim touches on, just what is it i'm supposed to spend my time reading thru that and looking for unless you're purporting that every one was by "a Democrat racist-ly calling for the assassination of W or Cain or other Republican candidate/politician"?
- 5 votes
But we all know that the Tea Party has no racists, right?
- 17 votes
#14 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:15 PM ESTI don't know that. I am sure that they have racists in their midsts, the same as any other large group. Progressives have their fair share as well, but that doesn't make them racists. I don't believe as a whole the progressive movement is racist just because of a few bad apples, do you?
- 5 votes
Bad apples, indeed, and all wear different labels. It isn't fair to point at one offending group when we know just about all groups have the capacity and will to offend. Anyone that feels strong resentment for what they disapprove of will let it all hang out but stating it is only one type or a particular party is ludicrous.
- 6 votes
The problem with Republicans/Libertarians is that they ALLOW this type of behavior. They dont condone it. You want us to believe that these are isolated incidents and dont represent your party? Then condone it and call them out for their actions. I bet you wont. Just like no one has called out Beck, Limbaugh, Trump, Palin etc etc for their demeaning rhetoric against our President. If you let it happen, you are just as guility.
- 1 vote
If you let it happen, you are just as guility.
Well democrats (if anyone here is one, I'm not claiming to know) which of you were denouncing the DNC for those maps with bulls-eyes and war-like rhetoric of being "behind enemy lines", and "targeting" republicans.
their demeaning rhetoric against our President.
Like making pictures of our President as a chimp, or like Hitler, or the Joker.
You want us to believe that these are isolated incidents and dont represent your party? Then
condonecondemn it and call them out for their actions. I bet you wont.
Probably a safe bet given how widespread the problem apparently is.
Of course what is the problem, that Republicans do it, or that everyone does it?
- 2 votes
A threat on the President's life and that of his family is a felony. I am counting on the proper authorities to bring charges against Jules Manson. Hopefully they are already on the case.
- 18 votes
#15 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:17 PM ESTNice try Juels Manson. But you'll have to do better than that if you want to out wit our president.
- 5 votes
#16 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:22 PM ESTEven if you believe/think such idiotic statements, what makes people make the galacticly stupid move to post something like this publicly on Facebook? Did he really think this was going to have a good outcome?
People like this only do damage to whatever group they belong to. Of course, now so many people are going to say 'see libertarians/RP supporters and RP are just racists' while ignoring or explaining away the similar idiots in their own groups.
- 5 votes
#17 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:25 PM ESTEven if you believe/think such idiotic statements, what makes people make the galacticly stupid move to post something like this publicly on Facebook? Did he really think this was going to have a good outcome?
He probably felt insulated because of the area where he lives (which harbors a lot of racism) and because of the general climate in our nation which has experienced a lot of open racism since Obama was elected. For a long while, racism was not practiced as openly as it is now, but now it is in the open again.
But I agree. What made him think he was insulated from our laws against threatening the president? As a person who lived through the era where three assassinations took place (two Kennedys and King), it makes me sick to realize it is deemed acceptable in some groups to threaten our nation and our president with this horror. I read a couple of years ago, Obama has received an extraordinary amount of death threats compared to all other presidents. I wish the arrests of these terrorists were made highly visible. It might discourage others.
- 13 votes
What made him think he was insulated from our laws against threatening the president?
The guy sounds clueless (like many of his stripe)
So it's probably not so much that he felt such speech was protected, it was that he simply had no idea nor even understands his Constitutional rights beyond talking-points fed to him. That, and anyone who has a public facebook profile and posts on the wall like that is a tried-and-true moron.
- 8 votes
Maybe Jules Manson should play the "free speech" card or say he's a victim of a vast liberal conspiracy and that Obama sent his secret army to harass him.
- 2 votes
He probably felt insulated because of the area where he lives (which harbors a lot of racism) and because of the general climate in our nation which has experienced a lot of open racism since Obama was elected.
i think Fakebook and the whole much of the online, social networking culture is to blame, people no longer knowing how to withhold unacceptable behavior and comments. even tho Fakebook is under your own name, people may forget that they're not anonymous even when they're doing something anonymously, like our 'Vine trolls or that teapartyist county commissioner in Tampa.
there is at least a part of it which is due to, yes, the libertarian ideology, the belief that 'i can or should be able to do whatever i want; i have rights (and no responsibilities), including calling for the assassination of the president.'
- 2 votes
He probably felt insulated because of the area where he lives (which harbors a lot of racism) and because of the general climate in our nation which has experienced a lot of open racism since Obama was elected.
In California? Ive only been there a few times but it does not strike me as a particularly racist place and Im from the south.
i think Fakebook and
the wholemuch of the online, social networking culture is to blame, people no longer knowing how to withhold unacceptable behavior and comments.
Frankly, I like that to some extent. I much prefer the honesty. If you are racist or whatever, be open with it for all to see. You cant combat the problem if everyone keeps it hidden. As long as youre only open about it verbally and not physically.
there is at least a part of it which is due to, yes, the libertarian ideology, the belief that 'i can or should be able to do whatever i want; i have rights (and no responsibilities),
That is absolutely not true. Because you do have rights you automatically have responsibilities. You do the have the right to say and do (for the most part) anything that you want. However, there are always consequences to your actions. I think this guy will be finding out his consequences shortly and on various fronts.
- 2 votes
T'omm
The sad thing is, he just moved his comments to his private group. Who knows how large a group that is, as he was running for political office he may a huge number of followers. I hope the secret service also examines his private conversations. You're right it is a federal offense to directly threaten the president. I don't know whether it's an offense to "call" for an assassination or say it should be done.
- 3 votes
In California? Ive only been there a few times but it does not strike me as a particularly racist place and Im from the south.
For the most part, it is a very tolerant state, but, as a California Republican, I'm painfully aware of that pocket of racism in my party:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/ex-los_alamitos_mayor_who_sent_racist_watermelons-.php
Dean Grose used to be Mayor and a City Councilman in Los Alamitos, California. In 2009, Grose resigned from both his positions after sending a racist email depicting watermelons growing on the lawn of the White House. Now, Grose is running for his old City Council seat once again.
Back in February, 2009, Grose became a household-internet name when he sent around the now-infamous email to a group of friends, including to one African-American businesswoman, Keyanus Price. The Orange County Register reported that the email had the heading: “No Easter Egg hunt this year,” and prompted Price to respond to Grose: “Hey, that’s not nice at all. Not all black people like watermelon, you should know better than that.” Grose replied: “The way things are today, you gotta laugh every now and then. I wanna see the coloring contests.”
Grose eventually released an official statement of apology, but the damage had been done. He resigned as Mayor, then as City Councilman a week later when the controversy didn’t go away.
But now he’s back, and he’s got the endorsement of the local Republican Central Committee.
http://themoderatevoice.com/106893/racist-orange-county-republican-email-says-obama-and-parents-are-apes-and-has-racist-cartoon/
The [Orange County] Weekly has obtained a copy of an email sent to fellow conservatives this week by Marilyn Davenport, a Southern California Tea Party activist and member of the central committee of the Orange County Republican Party.
Under the words, “Now you know why no birth certificate,” there’s an Obama family portrait showing them as apes.
(Donald Trumpz must be elated to finally have an explanation about Obama’s true birth circumstances.)
Here’s the image attached to the email....
Reached by telephone and asked if she thought the email was appropriate, Davenport said, “Oh, come on! Everybody who knows me knows that I am not a racist. It was a joke. I have friends who are black. Besides, I only sent it to a few people–mostly people I didn’t think would be upset by it.”
It gets worse:
But Davenport does not appear ready to concede she has made a mistake. After this story was published, she sent another email to fellow California conservative activists. It demanded to know the identity of “the coward” who supplied me with a copy of her offensive email.
AND WORSE:(Update: KCAL and KCBS reported during their respective 10 and 11 p.m. broadcasts that in a telephone interview Davenport blamed the media for this controversy and slammed down the phone.)
- 6 votes
You're right it is a federal offense to directly threaten the president. I don't know whether it's an offense to "call" for an assassination or say it should be done.
i believe that would be categorized as incitement if not an actual conspiracy, and would be just as illegal.
- 3 votes
I just looked, he has over 2600 friends that he's now spewing that garbage to in his "private group"
- 6 votes
I'm sure the authorities are on top of it and will do whatever is necessary. It was a rather nasty thing to do. If you hate the President you hate the President but it makes no sense to me why would you ever want to go after his family also.
- 7 votes
#18 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:27 PM ESTIf they can arrest children for bullying on FB why can't they put this guy away for life.
- 8 votes
#19 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:28 PM ESTI would like to have anyone in the Tea Party or Republican asked whether the two groups should address the nation on this.
I know the Democrats have had many wildly questionable people, but I say, the bulk of the most craziest appear to emanate from the GOP/TP.
I'm just saying, is their belief system so rigid - or are they so greedy - that this is what their party produces.
I would agree with one retired general who complained about many Republican officials on criticizing the President on the removal of troops in Iraq, and that his party (Republican) is too much out of control, and that he may leave it.
Just today, Boehner again cowards at the extreme right of his party - the tea party - and will not pass the two-month (that's two months) extension to the payroll tax.
The GOP needs to purge both the entire Tea Party and the far-right extremists in their party. Combined, they couldn't do SH## - that is, their numbers are small and they wouldn't be a viable third-party.
- 9 votes
#20 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:33 PM ESTthey need to drink somthing besides tea. And no I won,t say what comes to mind.
- 5 votes
#21 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:40 PM ESTHaving just learned of the Zionist campaign of hiring propagandists on many internet blogs whose job it is to condemn anyone who is pro-Arab/Muslim and defend Israel when it is criticized, I wonder if people are not following the same agenda of distortion of issues and people by submitting hateful comments criticizing/condemning our President. It just goes to show you that we cannot repeat cannot trust what we read on these blogs and draw intelligent conclusions from them.
- 2 votes
#22 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:44 PM ESTThere are thousands of hired hacks doing blogs and posting on forums like NV. Corporations, lobbyests, candidates and just about everyone else with enough money are paying people to post propaganda.
No one should form their opinion based on propaganda or talking points. They should do their own research and use their common sense.
- 13 votes
Welcome to the new generation of cough "news" . Every single group that has enough funding hire their disinformation groups and propoganda blogs. The truth or "real news" is becoming a dying species. I am guilty of falling for it sometimes as well. But I have learned eventually the names of the agenda-driven blogs are. They maintain a level of believability by mixing truth with conjecture. Half truths with an equal dose of conjecture. There are right, left, religious, atheist, .......... a sensationalizing blog for every group. Today there isn't a filter that protects us from garbage so we get the good with the bad. In some ways it is good, in some ways bad, depending on how much credence you give them.
What it is doing beyond a doubt though is polarizing everyone against the other. No longer are people simply disagreeing; they are actually making other groups hate the other. No one listens to someone's ideas if they hate the people that are sharing them. Many don't even know the ideas behind the other's beliefs, they just dismiss them and say they are wrong because they were told that.
- 7 votes
What it is doing beyond a doubt though is polarizing everyone against the other. No longer are people simply disagreeing; they are actually making other groups hate the other. No one listens to someone's ideas if they hate the people that are sharing them.
Too, too true and very sad. It will bring our nation to its knees.
- 6 votes
Not a racist, Manson? Yeah, right. It maybe understandable why you might hate Obama, but why include his children? Calling for the assinsation of the President is low, yet to call for the assassination of his children, who have nothing to do with politics, is really low. It's clear you are a racist, bigot jerk, Manson, due to asking for the deaths of Obama's daughters.
BTW, Manson, if you're related to another Manson, who led a deranged cult back in the late 60's and early 70's, which led on a deadly murdering spree, I hope you end up in jail alongside your deranged relative.
- 12 votes
#23 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:51 PM ESTThe rabid, fascist right is on a hair trigger. I really worry more and more as the 2012 elections get closer that some pig is going to act out. This country will explode if there is a major incident.
- 9 votes
#25 - Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:00 PM ESTYou're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead. |
